Humanitarian OSM Team/Chat Sep 22 2011

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A HOT Chat taking place on September 21st

Topics:

IRC log:

(03:59 AM) wonderchook is it time?:)
(04:00 AM) Eugene Almost :) Hello everyone!
(04:00 AM) -> lsweeney has joined hot
(04:01 AM) IknowJoseph evening all
(04:02 AM) wonderchook morning!
(04:02 AM) wonderchook I have to set an alarm for these things, yawn!
(04:02 AM) hughbris works out that wonderchook is Kate - hi Kate
(04:02 AM) IknowJoseph I've just got into bed for it
(04:02 AM) wonderchook hi hughbris
(04:02 AM) -> tombuckley has joined hot
(04:03 AM) wonderchook so we sorta have an agenda here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/HOT_Chats though I didn't update it recently
(04:03 AM) hughbris love the timing, 11am here, but I'm probly just gonna lurk
(04:04 AM) Schuyler hello
(04:04 AM) tombuckley thats ok hugh, im not wearing any pants
(04:04 AM) Schuyler and it's mid evenign where he is
(04:04 AM) hughbris tombuckley: pants in the en-us ro en-uk sense?
(04:04 AM) hughbris s/ro/or/
(04:05 AM) Schuyler does it matter?
(04:05 AM) hughbris just helps me with visualisation
(04:05 AM) wonderchook so shall we get started?
(04:05 AM) -> harry-wood has joined hot
(12:05:31 AM) Schuyler: shoot
(12:05:44 AM) Schuyler: since clearly this is going to be THAT kind of meeting
(12:05:50 AM) wonderchook: so first up on the agenda is activations
(12:06:02 AM) wonderchook: I made a wiki page yesterday to start to define our policy http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/HOT_Chats
(12:07:12 AM) tombuckley: the policy on chats or activations?
(12:07:13 AM) wonderchook: oops, there is actually this one that I made: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Activation_Protocols
(12:07:17 AM) tombuckley: ah ok
(12:07:37 AM) wonderchook: and this one already existed http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HOT_activation
(12:07:49 AM) harry-wood: and I linked it to the other wiki page I made: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HOT_activation
(12:09:39 AM) wonderchook: yeah, so I like what you outlined harry-wood
(12:09:52 AM) wonderchook: then the protocol would be specifics I think?
(12:09:58 AM) harry-wood: I agreed to work with lsweeney on this, but generally been swamped since SOTM so far
(12:10:01 AM) wonderchook: for example there was a brief discussion of using skype for specific projects
(12:10:27 AM) hughbris: fyi I made this a little while back, possibly in anger too much: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Action_considerations
(12:11:04 AM) harry-wood: uhoh another page
(12:11:13 AM) harry-wood: hehehe :-)
(12:11:26 AM) hughbris: harry-wood: you're harry the gardener
(12:12:20 AM) ***harry-wood is already considering how to merge
(12:12:52 AM) Schuyler: these all seem reasonable.
(12:12:56 AM) harry-wood: looks good. Variety of different considerations
(12:12:59 AM) Schuyler: although, they are quite prospective
(12:12:59 AM) ***hughbris would be personally resistant to skype for not-liking-microsoft reasons
(12:13:10 AM) tombuckley: this looks good, but there is no formal category for preparing pre-disaster
(12:13:12 AM) Schuyler: I would like to work out more concrete activation criteria
(12:13:22 AM) tombuckley: so where does an indonesia type project fall?
(12:13:31 AM) wonderchook: hughbris: that is also how I feel, but I think the reason it was suggested was it actually works better than IRC for catching up on things you missed
(12:13:37 AM) Schuyler: tombuckley: Indonesia is at present a project, rather than an activation
(12:13:38 AM) harry-wood: Schuyler: yes. that's what is missing indeed
(12:13:50 AM) harry-wood: activation criteria
(12:14:00 AM) tombuckley: right, but here it says a "project" is initiated after a disaster
(12:14:05 AM) wonderchook: yes, ideally the criteria should almost be a form
(12:14:10 AM) Schuyler: tombuckley: terminology failure, that
(12:14:14 AM) hughbris: concrete yet agile activation criteria required
(12:14:15 AM) wonderchook: well, I think in Haiti it was still an activation for a while
(12:14:24 AM) wonderchook: but I think it would probably be a project at this point
(12:14:27 AM) wonderchook: maybe:)
(12:14:30 AM) tombuckley: right
(12:14:46 AM) tombuckley: so then a project is not initiated "after a disaster"?
(12:14:51 AM) Schuyler: how about: HOT activates when requested by a partner organization (MapAction, OCHA, SBTF) who intends to use the data to support humanitarian ops
(12:15:00 AM) harry-wood: well. not exclusively after a disaster
(12:15:21 AM) wonderchook: so I think there are times where we wold activate wtihout a request
(12:15:30 AM) wonderchook: to be ahead of things
(12:15:34 AM) Schuyler: tombuckley: it was my understanding that a "project" is a funded deployment before a crisis or during the recovery phase
(12:15:53 AM) Schuyler: "activation" should refer only to the response phase of a crisis
(12:16:10 AM) tombuckley: ok, so can i change the wording on this "A "humanitarian mapping project" will be initiated in response to a disaster."
(12:16:13 AM) harry-wood: Nicholas had some suggestions about activation criteria. Various OCHA organisations activate all at once apparently
(12:16:13 AM) Schuyler: wonderchook: I agree. what other concrete criteria can we envision?
(12:16:26 AM) wonderchook: well, so I don't think it is going to be totally black and white
(12:16:32 AM) wonderchook: I think there is going to be gray
(12:16:35 AM) Schuyler: yeah
(12:16:46 AM) wonderchook: I think it is "can we be effective helping?"
(12:17:01 AM) Schuyler: I AGREE
(12:17:01 AM) wonderchook: meaning if SBTF asks us to activate over X country and there is no imagery and no-one intends to help us get any
(12:17:09 AM) wonderchook: then we probably wouldn't want to
(12:17:11 AM) lsweeney: i'm not clear if an activation includes any on the ground efforts or is purely volunteers helping with mapping satellite imagery from anywhere
(12:17:12 AM) tombuckley: ok but the contrapositive of A "humanitarian mapping project" will be initiated in response to a disaster. is "not initiated after a disaster is not a humanitarian mapping project"
(12:17:24 AM) tombuckley: which seems to exclude all non-post-disaster projects
(12:18:08 AM) wonderchook: tombuckley: like a preparedness project?
(12:18:13 AM) tombuckley: right
(12:18:44 AM) wonderchook: well, I don't think we would call that an activation. that I think is still a project, whether funded or not
(12:18:58 AM) tombuckley: right ok, ill shut up and just word that differently on the wiki
(12:18:58 AM) tombuckley: sorry
(12:19:19 AM) harry-wood: tombuckley: My idea for the "humanitarian mapping project" concept is just to weave it into the natural way OSM works anyway. It will be initiated whenever people feel like initiating it. It's a wiki page. It will develope organically.
(12:19:32 AM) tombuckley: right, i got that at the end
(12:19:35 AM) tombuckley: and its nice
(12:20:41 AM) harry-wood: Activation follows on from that later, or perhaps in the case of rapid activations or something like indonisia, we go rapidly from project to activation.
(12:20:49 AM) wonderchook: so, I don't think we need to define everything today, though I think we have a good start with the 3 wiki pages.
(12:21:00 AM) wonderchook: but it might be good to outline some of the actual communication protocols
(12:21:08 AM) harry-wood: so someone sets up a wiki page, and everyone says yes yes yes let's go. It's an activation
(12:21:50 AM) harry-wood: Maybe the HOT board or the HOT memebers make that decision? <--- this is the question
(12:22:40 AM) IknowJoseph: and if some people say "yes yes yes lets go" but not the rest of HOT?
(12:22:54 AM) IknowJoseph: then it's just a load of folks mapping - standard OSM stuff?
(12:22:58 AM) shoaib [~55b27e4c@shenron.openstreetmap.org] entered the room.
(12:23:01 AM) harry-wood: yeah
(12:23:30 AM) harry-wood: hopefull the reason for that is not that all the HOT folks are asleep in the US or something
(12:24:19 AM) wonderchook: yeah, I think either the HOT members or the board should agree it is an activation
(12:24:24 AM) wonderchook: I'm inclined to say board because it woudl be easier
(12:24:36 AM) Schuyler: yeah
(12:24:38 AM) IknowJoseph: presumably a activation goes on the website?
(12:24:52 AM) wonderchook: I think yes, activation would go on a website, we would tell our partners we are active, etc
(12:24:57 AM) Schuyler: YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE THIS IS AN ACTIVATION THIS IS NOT A DRILL (ACTUALLY IT IS A DRILL)
(12:25:06 AM) harry-wood: yeah we need to spell out "goes on the website" a little more
(12:25:07 AM) wonderchook: if people decided to map something where we weren't having an activation that is fine
(12:25:14 AM) wonderchook: i.e. say my town flooded and I wanted to map it
(12:25:20 AM) ***Schuyler hacking on the tasking server and lurking
(12:25:58 AM) wonderchook: maybe that isn't an activation, but of course as normal in OSM you could still map, nobody is stopping you:)
(12:26:04 AM) IknowJoseph: it seems like quite a fluid process of activating / de-activating
(12:26:21 AM) harry-wood: wonderchook exactly. And it we clearly can never restrict that stuff. So we should be explicitly allowing it (make it clear to interested volunteers)
(12:26:23 AM) IknowJoseph: the important bit seems to be the recognition from HOT that something is occuring
(12:26:46 AM) wonderchook: yeah, it is really just agreeing to a level of support I think
(12:27:01 AM) wonderchook: i.e. ideally there should be people responsible to help other organizations if we are active
(12:27:08 AM) IknowJoseph: makes sense then that the boar decide :)
(12:27:18 AM) IknowJoseph: board* not a wild pig...
(12:27:38 AM) lsweeney: i'm not seeing anything about deactivation
(12:28:07 AM) harry-wood: The "other organisations" bit is my blindspot still at the moment, and I think actually this is the main motivation to have "activations" at all
(12:28:25 AM) hughbris: yes, it's all for (kinda) nothing if no-one uses the improved data *in* the disaster
(12:28:30 AM) wonderchook: well yeah, HOT is bridging between OSM and the UN for example
(12:28:45 AM) wonderchook: so we are saying to OCHA, "hey we are active if you need something ask, we'll help"
(12:28:54 AM) lsweeney: I think it would make sense for people to want to know what areas are active and which have transitioned back to a 'project' status or something. otherwise you could end up with indefinite numbers of activations with no end points.
(12:29:05 AM) tombuckley: lsweeney: interesting point
(12:29:45 AM) wonderchook: yeah, that is true
(12:29:51 AM) wonderchook: I don't think there would be a timeframe on this
(12:29:58 AM) wonderchook: I mean a specific period of time that is
(12:30:09 AM) harry-wood: lsweeney: yes good point. We need deactivation. I'm sure we'll have infininit numbers of projects (all linked somewhere off 'Mapping Projects' page hopefully) but we dont want loads of "live" activations
(12:30:19 AM) Schuyler: we should probably specify a deactivation time frame at the start
(12:30:28 AM) Schuyler: 30, 60, 90 days, with option to extend
(12:30:34 AM) Schuyler: so the default should be short
(12:30:40 AM) harry-wood: nature of the disaster will factor into it though
(12:31:03 AM) wonderchook: well, my thought was a review type period
(12:31:10 AM) wonderchook: i.e. do we review if we are active every 2 weeks?
(12:31:12 AM) wonderchook: or something
(12:31:36 AM) Schuyler: perhaps at each HOT chat.
(12:31:37 AM) tombuckley: how does someone like AID do this?
(12:32:10 AM) tombuckley: or mapaction, etc
(12:32:45 AM) shoaib: Usually it would based on request
(12:32:54 AM) shoaib: from the main agency
(12:33:09 AM) shoaib: if they want continued support
(12:33:21 AM) shoaib: they will state the need ...
(12:33:49 AM) shoaib: i think the maps-group.org in Australia have a weekly review ... but they deploy to field
(12:33:56 AM) lsweeney left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(12:34:44 AM) lsweeney [~60e91a04@shenron.openstreetmap.org] entered the room.
(12:34:45 AM) shoaib: in reality the agency can grade the event by size and roughly predict the resouces that would be needed
(12:35:19 AM) hughbris: roughly being an important qualifier
(12:35:50 AM) lsweeney: sorry i just learned that backspace can cause problems in this system so i lost the thread
(12:35:56 AM) lsweeney: The sense I'm getting is that the level of resource associated with an activation could vary - the minimum being imagery and volunteers available to map remotely. Activations that have people on the ground requiring coordination will be much more intense to maintain for prolonged time periods
(12:36:53 AM) hughbris: lsweeney: nothing was said while you were off channel btw
(12:37:30 AM) Schuyler: well, this is what I meant by "30 days with option to extend"
(12:38:29 AM) wonderchook: yeah, so 30 days sounds long to me, but I don't know why:)
(12:38:40 AM) wonderchook: but really key is we just say x days then we review
(12:38:41 AM) wonderchook: I think
(12:38:54 AM) harry-wood: pragmatically speaking, the thing which needs to happen is, someone needs to remember (and have the confidence) to drop it off the list of live activations on the HOT wiki page
(12:38:59 AM) lsweeney: 30 days can be hard to maintain in a crisis situation
(12:40:00 AM) IknowJoseph: harry-wood: wiki and main site? would think that regular www would get more attention from non-HOTies
(12:40:20 AM) wonderchook: well, so we discussed having a place to list activations on the website
(12:40:24 AM) harry-wood: yep would be good to list them there too
(12:40:31 AM) wonderchook: so there probably just needs to be an activation section that lists them there
(12:41:01 AM) harry-wood: I'm imagining a wiki content proxying set-up might be the best thing.
(12:41:15 AM) IknowJoseph: slightly worried about stale content on a HOT website - needs careful management
(12:41:36 AM) wonderchook: IknowJoseph that is why we aren't putting much on it
(12:41:51 AM) IknowJoseph: :)
(12:41:56 AM) wonderchook: http://robert.devseed.com/hot/
(12:42:09 AM) wonderchook: maybe we would have an activation page and link to the wiki areas
(12:42:37 AM) Schuyler: (two weeks is fine)
(12:43:49 AM) harry-wood: So part of the protocol is... At the time HOT board decide to activate, they should all set a calender reminder for 30 days to review
(12:44:15 AM) wonderchook: yes
(12:45:08 AM) harry-wood: of course that still leaves a question around creteria for review. What constitutes a "disaster which no longer matter so much"
(12:45:30 AM) lsweeney: areas that are no longer active remain as ongoing project pages?
(12:45:56 AM) lsweeney: if people want to remain on the ground in areas no longer active do they lose any support?
(12:46:37 AM) harry-wood: lsweeney: yes they'd still be "projects" (and wiki pages) although I'd always encourage people to tidy stuff up and keep it up to date, which might entail rewording everything to past tense on the wiki page
(12:46:50 AM) tombuckley: harry-wood: i tend to agree
(12:46:54 AM) wonderchook: well, we don't really have people deployed on the ground like that lsweeney
(12:47:02 AM) wonderchook: and I don't think it would be any different than the work we do in Haiti now
(12:47:45 AM) tombuckley: wonderchook: can we get a link to the project and activation pages for haiti right now?
(12:47:55 AM) tombuckley: or maybe they are one in the same?
(12:48:12 AM) harry-wood: Perhaps we can say that.. any situation where HOT people are deployed on-the-ground, would definitely (one way or another) be an activation
(12:48:56 AM) wonderchook: tombuckley: i'm not sure what you mean
(12:49:04 AM) wonderchook: I think the issue is we haven't done things formally
(12:49:07 AM) wonderchook: there isn't a project page
(12:49:18 AM) wonderchook: short of this: http://robert.devseed.com/hot/projects/haiti-2
(12:49:51 AM) wonderchook: and the Hiait specific wiki page is way in need of gardening http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Haiti
(12:50:12 AM) harry-wood: I was just thinking that
(12:51:06 AM) IknowJoseph: gardeening or starting afreh? needs a HOT_Haiti page rather than using the country page?
(12:51:20 AM) harry-wood: I was just thinking that too :-)
(12:51:53 AM) tombuckley: wonderchook: i meant that second one
(12:52:03 AM) tombuckley: with all the "weeds"
(12:52:17 AM) wonderchook: so I think that there should be a link from the country page maybe
(12:52:18 AM) tombuckley: (are those historical invasives?)
(12:52:21 AM) harry-wood: As a point of wiki tidiness I'd suggest disasters should go on a new dedicated page, because it might be the most important and exciting thing happening in a place for a while... but not forever
(12:52:41 AM) lsweeney: the link just sent notes 2 key components: creating new data and helping organizations use the data. has HOT successfully helped the aid organisations to "use" the OSM data remotely, or does that need to be an on the ground effort in a crisis situation?
(12:53:08 AM) IknowJoseph: harry-wood: agreed, especially in pleaces like Haiti where succesful local groups are now in place
(12:54:19 AM) IknowJoseph left the room (quit: Quit: CGI:IRC).
(12:54:23 AM) IknowJoseph [~4e69e6b8@shenron.openstreetmap.org] entered the room.
(12:55:29 AM) harry-wood: would be quite a long wiki tidying job to move the haiti pages to follow that guideline now
(12:56:01 AM) harry-wood: but maybe no longer than the job I received from the hot task server :-)
(12:56:13 AM) ***harry-wood drew the short straw with that one
(12:56:20 AM) Schuyler: oops
(12:57:08 AM) harry-wood: lsweeney: you're asking about information about *using* osm data
(12:58:15 AM) harry-wood: It's something I worked on setting up properly during Haiti response: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Haiti/Earthquake_map_resources It's quite repetitive to set up similar stuff for every activation
(12:58:25 AM) wonderchook: haha, harry-wood yeah we are going to change it so the grids can be smaller
(12:58:52 AM) lsweeney: yes - http://robert.devseed.com/hot/projects/haiti-2 - "In March of that year HOT began to lead its first field mission to Haiti to help responding organizations, Government of Haiti (GoH) entities and Civil Society groups to use OpenStreetMap. There were two components to this, using that data and contributing directly to the OpenStreetMap project by adding the data themselves."
(1:02:17 AM) harry-wood: There's many bits of "using openstreetmap" documentation littering the wiki. For HOT we need to decide what the particularly useful uses to talk to aid agencies about, and do we need talk about them on every activation wiki page?
(1:03:22 AM) shoaib: Are there any good examples of what a Country level wiki page should look like?
(1:04:17 AM) ***harry-wood trumpet sound
(1:04:18 AM) harry-wood: The united kingdon of course: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom
(1:04:53 AM) shoaib: but of course!
(1:05:07 AM) harry-wood: well it looks quite pretty at least
(1:05:07 AM) wonderchook: I don't htink we need a new one for every activation
(1:05:12 AM) wonderchook: unless the tools are going to change
(1:06:03 AM) tombuckley: wonderchook: perhaps not need for activation, but as a project, it seems to make sense
(1:06:16 AM) tombuckley: however, as harry said, that happens organically
(1:07:42 AM) harry-wood: It's good to think in terms of country level wiki pages though. What will local people and aid organisations find when they go to this pages? the information they want?
(1:07:57 AM) harry-wood: I tried to put something useful on the Somalia page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Somalia
(1:08:29 AM) IknowJoseph: I llike that HOT badge on there
(1:08:59 AM) IknowJoseph: New Zealand is a nice example too - there's a country page for NZ and another about the earthquake
(1:09:14 AM) harry-wood: In general HOT folks should have the confidence to stir these pages around a bit and make sure they're working and linking effectively.
(1:09:32 AM) IknowJoseph: the whole NZ page hasn't been devoted to (foreign) involvement (ie. Libya)
(1:11:20 AM) wonderchook: yeah for example Haiti is entirely in English
(1:11:25 AM) wonderchook: which is a bit silly at this point:)
(1:13:05 AM) tombuckley: yes, i wonder what guens would think of the page
(1:13:24 AM) IknowJoseph: should encouraging local resources ownership be a goal of (some) activations? I guess it's all to be decided case by case
(1:13:36 AM) wonderchook: well, there is a big disconnect between language
(1:14:14 AM) shoaib left the room (quit: Quit: CGI:IRC).
(1:14:41 AM) wonderchook: also, you know how OSM is mostly geeks?
(1:14:48 AM) wonderchook: for example in Haiti we went in and started helping
(1:14:54 AM) wonderchook: the people that mostly help in Haiti now aren't geeks
(1:15:05 AM) wonderchook: and wikipage editing isn't that acessible to most of them
(1:15:16 AM) IknowJoseph: sure
(1:15:21 AM) wonderchook: so does it make sense when we are done to at least not leave the wiki a mess? then they can communicate however they want?
(1:15:30 AM) wonderchook: Indonesia isn't a great example, but most discussion happens on Facebook
(1:15:47 AM) wonderchook: Haiti is a small country so most discussion happens in person
(1:16:04 AM) IknowJoseph: I was thinking that if you can teach people to use a geographic wiki, those same people could use an actual wiki
(1:16:11 AM) IknowJoseph: of course, it's up to them
(1:16:26 AM) IknowJoseph: but OSM seems to be more of an infrastructure than just a map
(1:16:49 AM) IknowJoseph: maybe people would get more from it if they took more ownership of more of the infrastructure?
(1:17:10 AM) harry-wood: A solution for Haiti might be to move the whole thing off to 'Haiti Earthquake 2010' and then restart the 'WikiProject Haiti' page
(1:17:20 AM) IknowJoseph: just a thought - just don't want to see a load of english language geonerd-colonilism ;-)
(1:17:30 AM) IknowJoseph: harrd-wood: agreed
(1:17:52 AM) harry-wood: at which point there's an interesting question about language and content... but certainly it wont need 30 different sub pages :-)
(1:17:52 AM) IknowJoseph: most recent pages have names like 2011_some_disaster
(1:18:53 AM) IknowJoseph: arguably the main page should be in the local language?
(1:19:02 AM) IknowJoseph: but that's probably a point to argue ;)
(1:19:30 AM) IknowJoseph: OSM deals with multiple languages so nicely, it's a shame that the supporting documentation is often in English
(1:19:52 AM) wonderchook: yeah, but honestly I find wikis harder than JOSM;)
(1:19:59 AM) wonderchook: and also JOSM lets you edit offline
(1:20:11 AM) wonderchook: but yes the main page should be in the local language
(1:20:33 AM) harry-wood: also I'm conscious that we've been discussion wiki organisation for a while now. Probably because I get excited about it and I'm deflecting conversation ...what's next on the agenda?
(1:20:47 AM) tombuckley: yes
(1:21:23 AM) IknowJoseph: Indonesia?
(1:22:09 AM) wonderchook: yeah, not sure what about Indonesia
(1:22:12 AM) wonderchook: I'm in Jakarta?
(1:22:24 AM) wonderchook: we are making a big report
(1:22:48 AM) wonderchook: the tasking server is put and being tested
(1:22:56 AM) wonderchook: which was funded by our work in Indonesia
(1:23:04 AM) wonderchook: anyone have questions?
(1:23:13 AM) harry-wood: When did you get back to Jakarta? Did you stay around for the full FOSS4G?
(1:23:53 AM) tombuckley: will you publish the report publically?
(1:24:29 AM) wonderchook: I got back Sunday
(1:24:41 AM) wonderchook: yes we will publish the report publically, though it won't be out for a while
(1:26:34 AM) wonderchook: I'm just here for 2 weeks with Jeff Haack, meeting with partners and such
(1:26:57 AM) harry-wood: For the minutes I'd like it to be recorded that...
(1:26:58 AM) harry-wood: the tasking server is awesome
(1:28:25 AM) tombuckley: ditto
(1:28:53 AM) wonderchook: :)
(1:29:01 AM) wonderchook: if there aren't any questions we could move on to Haiti
(1:30:55 AM) wonderchook: so in Haiti we are working on a couple possible mapping projects with COSMHA (Community OSM Haiti), I think Nico is on a call with one of them which is why he isn't there
(1:31:03 AM) wonderchook: so we are trying to make sure we have people to fill things: http://hot.openstreetmap.org/weblog/hot-haiti-coordinator/
(1:36:37 AM) wonderchook: meaning, we have only had people work in Haiti through word of mouth before
(1:36:44 AM) wonderchook: and probably skipped people who were interested
(1:36:46 AM) wonderchook: and such
(1:37:10 AM) IknowJoseph: so will more positions make it to the website in the future?
(1:38:47 AM) wonderchook: in theory if there are positions
(1:38:58 AM) wonderchook: :)
(1:39:07 AM) wonderchook: I guess it is possible we never do another project again
(1:39:26 AM) wonderchook: ideally we'd like to build a database of peopel from HOT interested in doing fieldwork
(1:39:38 AM) wonderchook: and know things like the languages they know, how long they could be available for and such
(1:39:58 AM) harry-wood1: talked about that quite a lot at the face-to-face meeting hey?
(1:40:08 AM) harry-wood1: we need a skills matrix
(1:40:27 AM) harry-wood1: or even a "personnel file"  :-O
(1:40:35 AM) wonderchook: I was thinking a google doc form;)
(1:40:45 AM) wonderchook: it is hard to write thigns without making it seem all corporate
(1:40:49 AM) wonderchook: i.e. like writing the Haiti position
(1:41:21 AM) harry-wood left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 480 seconds).
(1:44:13 AM) wonderchook: so let's move on, I'm going to have to go to work soon
(1:44:16 AM) lsweeney: a spreadsheet of interested people and their skills sounds helpful and very different from the HOT Haiti coordinator posting. Every crisis will be in a different location and demand different needs
(1:44:49 AM) wonderchook: lsweeney: yes, it is different. key is someone putting it together
(1:44:59 AM) wonderchook: it is just in Haiti we specifically need the database now
(1:45:02 AM) wonderchook: for one reason
(1:46:09 AM) lsweeney: if people are amenable to it living in a google spreadsheet accessible through a google form i wouldn't mind getting that started.
(1:46:56 AM) harry-wood1: sounds good
(1:46:57 AM) lsweeney: or it could live on a wiki page
(1:47:07 AM) wonderchook: yep, I think a public google doc is fine
(1:47:15 AM) harry-wood1: did someone say wiki?
(1:47:19 AM) wonderchook: ha
(1:47:32 AM) harry-wood1: We can put this stuff on our user pages!
(1:47:33 AM) wonderchook: or a wiki is also fine, there could be a template page and people could have theirs link off their user page
(1:47:35 AM) wonderchook: in a list
(1:47:56 AM) lsweeney: as mentioned earlier, if it lived on a wiki page i think it would be more 'geek' oriented
(1:48:06 AM) ***harry-wood1 was trying not to mention the wiki :)
(1:48:50 AM) lsweeney: i think it just depends on how broad of a community we think this should appeal to
(1:48:57 AM) harry-wood1: Well... some stuff I imagine being more suitable for a spreadsheet elsewhere anyway.
(1:49:03 AM) IknowJoseph: is geek orientated a bad thing? The required skills listed for the Haiti position are pretty geeky ;)
(1:49:14 AM) wonderchook: well, yeah it depends on what HOT wants to be
(1:49:20 AM) wonderchook: honestly I view it as an extension of OSM
(1:49:24 AM) lsweeney: i <3 geeks
(1:49:26 AM) wonderchook: but are we trying to be more friendly?
(1:49:55 AM) wonderchook: honestly almost anyone going into the field would need to be a geek
(1:50:07 AM) wonderchook: basically if you can't edit XML at a min it would be hard
(1:50:22 AM) wonderchook: though, I suppose if 2 people were going together that isn't the case depending on things
(1:50:26 AM) wonderchook: so maybe ignore me:)
(1:50:58 AM) IknowJoseph: I think spreadsheet would work - there are other arguments for having it non-wiki, but I don't know if geekiness is one of them :)
(1:51:06 AM) wonderchook: ha
(1:51:17 AM) harry-wood1: I actually think the form->spreadsheet thing could work well for a skill info gathering thing
(1:51:17 AM) wonderchook: okay, thanks for starting on that lsweeney:)
(1:51:25 AM) IknowJoseph: wonder if people would be uncomfortable listing skills / experiance on the wiki?
(1:51:38 AM) harry-wood1: yes exactly
(1:51:40 AM) wonderchook: yeah, the form would probably be better
(1:51:52 AM) wonderchook: don't know, is the spreadsheet going to be public?
(1:52:10 AM) wonderchook: would people be concerned about their bosses finding out they wanted to run off with the OpenStreetMap?
(1:52:20 AM) harry-wood1: mmm but it's *less* public than your wiki user profile
(1:52:38 AM) harry-wood1: which is probably good
(1:52:41 AM) harry-wood1: for this task
(1:52:44 AM) wonderchook: yeah, true
(1:52:46 AM) lsweeney: i'm assuming there is no existing google account for HOT already - meaning I should create a new account with a password that can be shared amongst a group of people - yes?
(1:53:05 AM) wonderchook: no you can make the spreadsheet public to those that have the link
(1:53:14 AM) wonderchook: so you just use your gmail account
(1:53:20 AM) wonderchook: to make it
(1:54:56 AM) harry-wood1: columns for different skills/experience?
(1:55:39 AM) wonderchook: yeah so does it make sense to have something where you put an "x"
(1:55:49 AM) wonderchook: for example list a piece of software?
(1:55:49 AM) lsweeney: so far i've heard: name, contact info, language abilities, availability to respond
(1:56:04 AM) lsweeney: sounds like a brief description of 'field experience' could be helpful also?
(1:56:18 AM) lsweeney: and countries worked in before?
(1:56:19 AM) wonderchook: yeah
(1:56:29 AM) wonderchook: also, technical skills
(1:56:49 AM) harry-wood1: yeah. nick some ideas off the Haiti job description
(1:57:02 AM) IknowJoseph: and non-technical skills?
(1:57:20 AM) lsweeney: ok, i'll pull the tech specifics from the haiti piece and provide an option for "other" which will be free text
(1:57:43 AM) IknowJoseph: OSM ID?
(1:57:47 AM) wonderchook: yes
(1:57:50 AM) wonderchook: I think so
(1:58:36 AM) harry-wood1: yes. That way we can use OSMFight to decide who gets the job
(1:58:44 AM) harry-wood1: :-)
(1:58:56 AM) IknowJoseph: =)
(2:00:21 AM) harry-wood1: We've been chatting for 2 hours
(2:00:34 AM) tombuckley: yeah, im done
(2:00:53 AM) harry-wood1: 2 hours is not bad. Time for bed now though for me
(2:01:02 AM) IknowJoseph: I added Bissau to the list, but let's not talk about that
(2:02:05 AM) wonderchook: yeah, I think so.
(2:02:14 AM) wonderchook: can someone paste the log into the wiki?
(2:02:17 AM) tombuckley left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
tombuckley [~62da449d@shenron.openstreetmap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<lsweeney> i lost part of the log so hopefully someone else has the whole thing
<harry-wood1> yeah I also lost a bit :-)
<harry-wood1> if someone pastes it in here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/Chat_Sep_22_2011
<harry-wood1> I can help tidy it up
<harry-wood1> gotta run though
<harry-wood1> BYE
<IknowJoseph> ciao
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