Humanitarian OSM Team/Working groups/Activation/meeting 2015-01-13
Activation WG Meeting Jan 13, 2015 Agenda
Attendees: althio, blake, russdeffner, Cristiano, clairedelune, mkl, boukepieter, pgiraud, michael63
Hackpad Agenda, Notes and Activation Coordinators Activites List (still open for collaboration)
- This was just a general discussion at a high level about ideas and maybe needs we had for the Tasking Manager to help with development planning.
- Comment threads on projects were generally agreed would be useful
- Data about who checks out tasks, a bit more than just who "completes" a task would also be useful.
- There was continued discussion of the naming convention for Activation/Project/Task in the Tasking Manager but it was generally agreed that some level above project might be needed as it relates to TM.
- pgiraud explained that it was decided that the terms would be Program/Activation -> Project -> Tiles
- pgiraud further explained the Program/Activation level terminology would be the focus of development in the near term to help with the improvements to the TM front page.
Custom imagery in the Bangladesh projects is not loading in JOSM but is loading in iD.
Action Item: Troubleshoot this and make an issue of we can't figure out what is happening
- Fixed! Thank you althio, michael63, AndrewBuck, Christiano!
- The issue was the imagery url did not have TMS[22]: at the beginning, add that fixed the issue in both JOSM and iD continued to work.
How to run an activation documentation
- Below is the beginning of a summary list of things an Activation Coordinator would do.
- Russ pointed us to this very well done wiki document about what is involved in running an activation as well. That document looks to need some updating and maybe additions, but it looked to us like a very solid and thorough base to work from.
- Russ suggested review of this document could be on our agenda for the next couple of meetings so we can improve it a little at a time and get it up-to-date and finalized by summer.
The imagery request process
- This was discussed a little bit and mkl pointed us to the portion of the above linked wiki page that deals with imagery requests and commented that portion of the document is accurate
- Imagery requests are more than our partners can provide so they have to be prioritized and the above mentioned process takes that into account.
Activation Coordinators Activities List
- A preliminary, summary list of things an Activation Coordinator does was started on the meeting hackpad at the bottom.
- It was agreed we would review and revise the document in hackpad and then once approved add it to the HOT Activation wiki page linked to above.
IRC Log
Jan 13 15:01:48 BlakeGirardot_: Hi everyone.
Jan 13 15:02:29 russdeffner: Hello
Jan 13 15:02:36 michael63: Hi
Jan 13 15:02:51 Cristiano: Hi everyone
Jan 13 15:03:27 BlakeGirardot_: Hi michael63, nice to see you. Guten Tag
Jan 13 15:03:35 BlakeGirardot_: Hi Cristiano
Jan 13 15:03:48 boukepieter: Hello
Jan 13 15:04:08 althio: Hi all
Jan 13 15:04:35 BlakeGirardot_: Are we all here for the Activations WG meeting?
Jan 13 15:05:03 Cristiano: Is there an agenda? I'm new and just wondering :)
Jan 13 15:05:20 BlakeGirardot_: I do not have one for this meeting, but usually there is one
Jan 13 15:05:26 BlakeGirardot_: We can make one, we do that pretty often too.
Jan 13 15:05:30 russdeffner: I am awake early so thought I'd lurk
Jan 13 15:05:51 althio: Let's get it started without the agenda then ^^
Jan 13 15:06:04 Cristiano: Sounds good :)
Jan 13 15:06:37 BlakeGirardot_: Well it doubles as note taking and come communication channel as well. 2 secs
Jan 13 15:06:44 BlakeGirardot_: some communication channel*
Jan 13 15:06:50 Igel: hi
Jan 13 15:07:29 BlakeGirardot_: H Igel
Jan 13 15:07:38 BlakeGirardot_: Here we go, short and sweet: https://hackpad.com/Activation-WG-Meeting-Jan-13-2014-Agenda-6wPNYZZIvrB
Jan 13 15:07:44 gaspard: speakers, please +v voice up !
Jan 13 15:07:58 BlakeGirardot_: Cristiano, when we use hackpads they work pretty well as collaborative documents
Jan 13 15:08:20 BlakeGirardot_: gaspard, I have no idea what that means :)
Jan 13 15:08:49 russdeffner: gaspard are you talking about Mumble? I'm not fully 'here' yet, but can jump on in a few
Jan 13 15:09:09 BlakeGirardot_: I don't see anyone but me and AndrewBuck on mumble
Jan 13 15:09:25 BlakeGirardot_: Which by the way, Cristiano we use pretty often too if you want to try that out while you are here
Jan 13 15:09:52 BlakeGirardot_: Directions are here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mumble
Jan 13 15:10:37 Cristiano: OK, I'll check it out
Jan 13 15:11:20 gaspard: BlakeGirardot_ and russdeffner, i was talking about the voice mod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Relay_Chat#Modes
Jan 13 15:11:53 Igel: whats the topic?
Jan 13 15:12:01 gaspard: but nvm
Jan 13 15:12:24 russdeffner: oh, we've only used Mumble for voice, didn't know about that
Jan 13 15:12:26 BlakeGirardot_: gaspard, I have seen mention, but I have no idea what "giving voice status means" is it actual audio?
Jan 13 15:13:08 BlakeGirardot_: Yes, for voice mumble is quite good, the main advantage to me is secure certificates so there is no chance of impersonations.
Jan 13 15:13:19 russdeffner: Igel - this is the regularly scheduled Activation Working Group meeting
Jan 13 15:13:34 russdeffner: agenda is https://hackpad.com/Activation-WG-Meeting-Jan-13-2014-Agenda-6wPNYZZIvrB
Jan 13 15:14:09 BlakeGirardot_: Anyone can feel free to add or comment on the agenda.
Jan 13 15:14:23 BlakeGirardot_: Comments are made by starting a line with two forward slashes: // Your comment here
Jan 13 15:15:12 BlakeGirardot_: I know it is not really right for this meeting, but does anyone else think it is odd that the imagery for Jorieke's projects does not load in JOSM?
Jan 13 15:15:44 BlakeGirardot_: It loads fine in iD, but not in JOSM. That concerns me as I am not sure how many JOSM users are left out due to old imagery.
Jan 13 15:16:30 BlakeGirardot_: http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/838
Jan 13 15:16:42 BlakeGirardot_: http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/831
Jan 13 15:16:43 boukepieter1: I think that if this is well described in the mapping directions it shouldn't be a problem
Jan 13 15:16:46 BlakeGirardot_: are the projects in question
Jan 13 15:16:50 russdeffner: Have we isolated the problem? Was it just one person - maybe they didn't have remote on? Or is it a JOSM problem that we should make someone aware of?
Jan 13 15:16:52 althio: sounds like a bug and quite annoying
Jan 13 15:17:17 BlakeGirardot_: Yes, I do not know what happend russ, my JOSM works fine with other projects and hiu imagery
Jan 13 15:17:34 BlakeGirardot_: I'd like to look into it, but haven't gotten a chance before this meeting
Jan 13 15:17:36 russdeffner: So it might be a Tasking Manager bug?
Jan 13 15:18:08 BlakeGirardot_: I don't know, TM works for other projects with hiu and josm, why not these
Jan 13 15:18:30 BlakeGirardot_: Can we agree to follow up on it right after this meeting, if someone doesn't look into it in the mean time?
Jan 13 15:18:58 BlakeGirardot_: They are important projects, she is going into the field and needs prep work, I'd like to make sure we do as much correctly as we can.
Jan 13 15:19:06 russdeffner: I'm no dev, so I'd say we should try to figure out where the problem is and make a report
Jan 13 15:19:59 BlakeGirardot_: Ok, well. I'll consider this an action item for right after the meeting, troubleshoot and lodge an issue when we know more.
Jan 13 15:20:23 BlakeGirardot_: Anyone is free to help with that :)
Jan 13 15:20:52 Cristiano: What's the actual imagery URL we're talking about?
Jan 13 15:20:57 russdeffner: sounds good, have another matter to attend to for a bit, so go ahead and continue, be back shortly
Jan 13 15:21:44 BlakeGirardot_: http://hiu-maps.net/hot/1.0.0/dhaka-23oct2014-flipped/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.png
Jan 13 15:22:38 michael63: I'm currently investigating, seems to be an erroneous imagery setup in the task - please stay tuned until I know more
Jan 13 15:23:13 BlakeGirardot_: Danke viel mal michael63
Jan 13 15:23:16 BlakeGirardot_: :
Jan 13 15:23:43 AndrewBuck: Loading it manually in josm works, but it doesn't load properly from the remote
Jan 13 15:24:19 althio: missing "tms[22]" in the URL of the project?
Jan 13 15:24:43 althio: url of the imagery in the project
Jan 13 15:25:18 BlakeGirardot_: althio, That could be it, my DRC project that does have tms[22] loads in josm fine
Jan 13 15:25:33 michael63: that was it exactly - I just fixed it for both projects and they work in my JOSM now
Jan 13 15:26:00 BlakeGirardot_: Oh wow, ok, great. I know it wasn't really appropriate here, but ...
Jan 13 15:26:07 BlakeGirardot_: Thank you all very much for looking at it
Jan 13 15:26:16 althio: indeed, fixed
Jan 13 15:27:39 BlakeGirardot_: Hi Andrew as well
Jan 13 15:28:03 BlakeGirardot_: So the next item on the agenda is information or data an activation coordinator
Jan 13 15:28:06 althio: maybe the 22 is guesswork
Jan 13 15:28:09 BlakeGirardot_: might want to get from the TM
Jan 13 15:28:56 BlakeGirardot_: (guessing at the max zoom seems fine with hiu imagery so far)
Jan 13 15:29:11 BlakeGirardot_: tms[22] means maxzoom of level 22
Jan 13 15:29:39 BlakeGirardot_: It is basically required for MapBox imagery, but most other sources do not show X's when over zoomed.
Jan 13 15:30:14 BlakeGirardot_: So data from the Tasking Manager: For me this is something like everyone who has checked out a task on a project
Jan 13 15:30:40 BlakeGirardot_: or real time info on who is checking out/done'ing/validating tasks on a project i am running
Jan 13 15:31:08 BlakeGirardot_: My main use case is seeing new mappers easily and checkcing their work early in the process
Jan 13 15:31:22 BlakeGirardot_: and being able to thank all the mappers after a project is over
Jan 13 15:31:37 BlakeGirardot_: and marking tasks "done" is not really enough for me
Jan 13 15:31:44 BlakeGirardot_: as we get a lot of mappers who never mark a task done
Jan 13 15:32:04 BlakeGirardot_: the reason i ask is
Jan 13 15:32:27 BlakeGirardot_: Tech WG is going to try and get some longer term development plans in place and they would like to know if we have overall needs that they
Jan 13 15:32:35 BlakeGirardot_: should take into consideration in the planning process
Jan 13 15:33:12 BlakeGirardot_: Well, I shouldn't speak for them, but pgiraud did mention to me that maybe there should be some long term planning
Jan 13 15:33:24 althio: contrinution without marking 'done' and validation should be considered indeed
Jan 13 15:33:38 althio: contribution
Jan 13 15:33:50 BlakeGirardot_: and opinions from coordinators would be valuable to that process
Jan 13 15:33:57 * pgiraud thinks "did i?"
Jan 13 15:34:12 BlakeGirardot_: You did :)
Jan 13 15:34:48 althio: who are the coordinators by the way? some new people do know them
Jan 13 15:35:21 russdeffner: we don't have a 'list' of coordinators
Jan 13 15:35:59 althio: of course you know them russdeffner ;)
Jan 13 15:36:15 russdeffner: I would say I know most of them
Jan 13 15:36:35 BlakeGirardot_: Gah
Jan 13 15:36:41 BlakeGirardot_: No you didn't pgiraud
Jan 13 15:36:48 russdeffner: but actually I wouldn't want to try and list them because I'm sure I would leave someone out
Jan 13 15:36:50 BlakeGirardot_: what an idiot i am
Jan 13 15:37:49 althio: ok but is any coordinator currently here in this meeting?
Jan 13 15:37:53 russdeffner: at this point until we define a process to 'certify' coordinators, it's basically anyone who sticks their neck out
Jan 13 15:37:57 BlakeGirardot_: I apologize, I thought that was your comment pgiraud, it was not
Jan 13 15:38:11 Cristiano: What does a coordinator normally do?
Jan 13 15:39:00 >pgiraud< I am so sorry I thought that was your comment in github, but it was not. I feel like a total idiot.
Jan 13 15:39:05 clairedelune: sorry I haven't caught up yet everythin already said in this meeting, but I was a coordinator at some point
Jan 13 15:39:08 russdeffner: Cristiano - basically oversee's either a Humanitarian Mapping Project or an Activation...
Jan 13 15:39:34 BlakeGirardot_: There is a lot to running an activation,
Jan 13 15:39:35 russdeffner: so typically creating the jobs in the TM, wiki-page, blog posts, etc
Jan 13 15:39:40 BlakeGirardot_: a lot.
Jan 13 15:39:43 althio: "coordinates with CartONG, American Red Cross, UN-WHO, UN-OCHA and the Digital Humanitarian Network. This coordination contributes to a quicker and more-efficient response, and assures that a range of map products and services are offered to the humanitarian organizations that operate in the region."
Jan 13 15:40:05 russdeffner: oh yes, the communication with partner orgs is big
Jan 13 15:40:06 althio: everything to enable collaborative mapping
Jan 13 15:40:34 BlakeGirardot_: Lets start a list on the hackpad
Jan 13 15:40:38 BlakeGirardot_: agenda
Jan 13 15:40:47 russdeffner: althio - where'd that qoute come from?
Jan 13 15:40:51 russdeffner: it's a good one
Jan 13 15:41:09 althio: russdeffner: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2014_West_Africa_Ebola_Response#Coordination
Jan 13 15:41:15 russdeffner: thanks
Jan 13 15:41:25 clairedelune: creating tasks, coordinating data needs and prioritization with humanitarian organisations in the fiels, dealing with imagery providers when needed,...
Jan 13 15:41:46 Cristiano: OK. Does he/she have a different role defined in TM? Is there a quick way to know and contact a coordinator for a specific project?
Jan 13 15:42:26 AndrewBuck: Keep in mind that activations like the ebola one are not totally representative, most activartions are much smaller and work with fewer outside groups.
Jan 13 15:42:43 althio: one of the coordinator of the activation is certainly the creator of a specific project
Jan 13 15:43:01 AndrewBuck: So although using them as a guide for some things is good, we need to focus also on the smaller projects where we have only one or two outside partners.
Jan 13 15:43:17 russdeffner: yes, I would just say "coordinates with partner organizations and the local community" (where applicable)
Jan 13 15:44:17 althio: ... so you find him/her as project creator/manager listed as "created by ..." on the homepage http://tasks.hotosm.org/
Jan 13 15:44:59 althio: it could/should be added at other places in the project description but currently this is not the case
Jan 13 15:45:24 russdeffner: althio I think that is a good 'rule of thumb' but it could be a coordinator is being assisted with the job creation
Jan 13 15:46:08 russdeffner: 'traditionally' we list the coordinator(s) on the wiki-page
Jan 13 15:46:36 Cristiano: OK, got it. So for http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/838 it says Missing Maps, that means someone from the MM project?
Jan 13 15:47:09 AndrewBuck: Well, missing maps is a bunch of projects. They are coordinated by quite a few people.
Jan 13 15:47:31 althio: yes, so 'quick way' you will only find the job creator, if you dig into the wiki you may find the coordination team
Jan 13 15:47:38 AndrewBuck: exactly
Jan 13 15:50:57 russdeffner: I would like to just mention this again - the Activation WG from one or two years ago decided this...
Jan 13 15:50:57 Cristiano: OK. I was thinking it would be nice to have some sort of chat for each project so that people can ask questions or provide feedback while they are working on tasks
Jan 13 15:50:57 russdeffner: Anyone can create a Humanitarian Mapping Project using HOT tools
Jan 13 15:50:57 Cristiano: OK, I was thinking it would be nice to have some kind of chat or real time forum for each project
Jan 13 15:50:57 russdeffner: but an "Activation" would be our official response
Jan 13 15:51:45 russdeffner: what may still be 'undecided' is exactly what makes an Activation
Jan 13 15:53:15 BlakeGirardot_: Cristiano, I agree and we do everything we can to get people to visit here, this irc channel, but I think something like comments on each project might be more friendly to a lot of people.
Jan 13 15:53:59 BlakeGirardot_: People are getting pretty used to "commenting" on individual pages/articles/stories/etc, why not projects too
Jan 13 15:54:19 clairedelune: I don't know exactly where we are with the future new developments of the TM but would be great to have people commenting on activations (group of tasks)
Jan 13 15:54:58 clairedelune: a place to exchange as Cristiane and BlakeGirardot_ are mentionning
Jan 13 15:55:55 russdeffner: I agree, this should definitely be an AWG wishlist item for the TM
Jan 13 15:56:02 clairedelune: If the tasks can be grouped/listed by activation that will help facing quite a bunch of needs
Jan 13 15:56:10 BlakeGirardot_: Oh, hi Claire, I didn't see you come in, welcome to the meeting :)
Jan 13 15:56:37 clairedelune: sorry didn't say hello (was not yet much into it) Hello All!
Jan 13 15:57:04 Cristiano: It could also be like a coordination room during fast response mapping tasks or remote mapping parties
Jan 13 15:57:53 althio: grouped/listed by activation: I don't know what is the actual status, but I thought it was perceived as high priority and within the scope of the internship on homepage?
Jan 13 15:58:47 BlakeGirardot_: althio, I think your understanding is correct
Jan 13 15:59:10 boukepieter1: I think this is a good idea, also because the irc channel is not convienently logged where you can react on something
Jan 13 16:00:09 clairedelune: Yes, we have rooms for voice chat on mumble already when needs are really high, but would be great to be more "stable" place for written comments too, without having to click on each square of each task, available when you cannot stayed logged in
Jan 13 16:00:23 clairedelune: exactly boukepieter1
Jan 13 16:00:55 BlakeGirardot_: So we think a comment section on individual Projects the major unit in the Tasking Manager right now is a good idea
Jan 13 16:01:54 clairedelune: either on projects (tasks) or on each activation page
Jan 13 16:02:44 BlakeGirardot_: The "activation page" being the page in the wiki?
Jan 13 16:03:01 BlakeGirardot_: We might be mixing terms :)
Jan 13 16:03:05 russdeffner: just for clarity, we are using 'activation' for a collection of jobs?
Jan 13 16:03:21 boukepieter1: I think it should at least be visible on the page where you click the squares
Jan 13 16:03:32 BlakeGirardot_: russdeffner: I am and it is not connected to the Tasking Manager at the moment unfortunately.
Jan 13 16:03:36 boukepieter1: that is the main page a mapper sees I think
Jan 13 16:03:37 BlakeGirardot_: Yes boukepieter1
Jan 13 16:04:09 russdeffner: ^page where you click squares = job (I think)
Jan 13 16:04:33 BlakeGirardot_: That is the page I am talking about in the TM, the "Project" which is the Description, Instructions, Contribute, etc.
Jan 13 16:04:45 BlakeGirardot_: Thats the Contribute tag
Jan 13 16:04:47 BlakeGirardot_: tab
Jan 13 16:04:47 boukepieter1: and maybe just an extra tab then
Jan 13 16:05:11 BlakeGirardot_: boukepieter1: I think that is a good way to do it
Jan 13 16:05:37 russdeffner: oh, dang it - so it is "project" now (page where you click squares)
Jan 13 16:05:38 BlakeGirardot_: Add one more Tab "Comments" or "Questions" or "Discussion"
Jan 13 16:05:56 BlakeGirardot_: the thing with the number, Project #661
Jan 13 16:06:12 BlakeGirardot_: http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/831
Jan 13 16:06:31 clairedelune: sorry, I was talking about non existing yet "activation pages" in the TM. I haven't checked if we were only talking about a filter for sorting tasks by activation of if they would get a separate page for each
Jan 13 16:07:04 Cristiano: So, let's say I'm in http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/831 how do I see which activation it belongs to?
Jan 13 16:07:09 BlakeGirardot_: clairedelune, Ah. I see what you are saying, ok, so "activation page" in some way needs to be part of the TM as part of longer term development.
Jan 13 16:07:21 BlakeGirardot_: Cristiano: You don't at the moment.
Jan 13 16:07:23 russdeffner: Cristiano - that's where we lack
Jan 13 16:07:36 clairedelune: that would be great, in my opinion
Jan 13 16:07:44 russdeffner: typically all the 'projects' will be listed on the wiki-page
Jan 13 16:07:44 BlakeGirardot_: clairedelune: I agree
Jan 13 16:07:50 clairedelune Cristiano Canepa clara cquest cquest_
Jan 13 16:08:15 BlakeGirardot_: Cristiano: Also, not every "project" is part of an "activation"
Jan 13 16:08:32 clairedelune: Cristiano, moreover that task is not part of an activation
Jan 13 16:08:33 russdeffner: ^those would be HMPs
Jan 13 16:08:36 BlakeGirardot_: An "activation" is a thing, it means certian things happen and maybe certain funds become avaiable
Jan 13 16:09:01 BlakeGirardot_: But anyone can run a "project" on the Tasking Manager that is not part of an Activation
Jan 13 16:09:12 clairedelune: BlakeGirardot_ funds are very rare for activations
Jan 13 16:09:23 BlakeGirardot_: So every activation has projects, but not every project has an activation
Jan 13 16:09:35 clairedelune: that's right
Jan 13 16:10:23 BlakeGirardot_: And Cristiano, also adding to the confusion for those who have been here longer than myself is that
Jan 13 16:10:46 BlakeGirardot_: the Tasking Manager used to use different terms than Activation, Project, Tasks
Jan 13 16:10:56 BlakeGirardot_: v1 of the TM used different words
Jan 13 16:11:03 BlakeGirardot_: Those just got introduced with TV v2
Jan 13 16:11:07 clairedelune: an activation starts because of a humanitarian crisis happening, and humanitarian organizations asking HOT formally to help providing data for the area and HOT answering to it. It also needs to be of some size.
Jan 13 16:11:08 russdeffner: I would call the other "project(s)" part of a Humanitarian Mapping Project, trying to nail down some terms
Jan 13 16:11:31 russdeffner: https://hackpad.com/HOT-Guide-Workspace-f0gDt7wBtu0#:h=What-HOT-does: - to fit the HOT Guide
Jan 13 16:11:57 boukepieter1: btw; why if http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/838 is an important task this week, is it only shown at the second page in the TM?
Jan 13 16:12:11 russdeffner: if you read the What HOT Does section - that took me a long time and many conversations to nail down/keep terminology straight
Jan 13 16:13:13 BlakeGirardot_: Nice russ, thank you for that document
Jan 13 16:13:40 BlakeGirardot_: boukepieter1, Because it is not labled as urgent or whatever the highest priority is, but really it probably could be
Jan 13 16:13:47 BlakeGirardot_: We have no guidelines for that
Jan 13 16:14:10 Cristiano: OK, thanks! I was getting confused between the terms tasks and projects
Jan 13 16:14:11 boukepieter1: is there one label for the whole duration or can it change per week?
Jan 13 16:14:14 BlakeGirardot_: But it could be urgent for a few days and then moved back down to important
Jan 13 16:14:22 BlakeGirardot_: it can change any time
Jan 13 16:14:50 russdeffner: I think we also have a lot of people labeling their project as high priority and not changing it
Jan 13 16:15:01 * BlakeGirardot_ nods agreeably.
Jan 13 16:15:23 BlakeGirardot_: It is a difficult thing. We need a longer list of projects on the main page, that seems like a super simple change
Jan 13 16:15:23 clairedelune: that's right
Jan 13 16:15:25 althio: russdeffner:about wording, from Nitika working on TM2 we have Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KDQrRxxBXaxysRUSxr8Kdxw2LXkgwhmREy52i4sLHLE/edit
Jan 13 16:15:25 boukepieter1: is that the call of the activation coordinator or does someone specific keeps the overview in that?
Jan 13 16:15:41 BlakeGirardot_: No guidelines or coordination of priorities.
Jan 13 16:16:04 boukepieter1: I mean the label
Jan 13 16:16:50 russdeffner: althio - yes I saw that, and think Pierre basically said what I would have
Jan 13 16:17:05 russdeffner: but it's nice to see an agreed terminology
Jan 13 16:17:23 clairedelune: Thanks althio for the link
Jan 13 16:17:23 BlakeGirardot_: I haven't looked at it recently, but I am against yet another change to terminology.
Jan 13 16:17:46 BlakeGirardot_: We need one level up from "project" and that is about it
Jan 13 16:18:02 BlakeGirardot_: in my obnoxious opinion of course :)
Jan 13 16:18:24 althio: if Activation people want or oppose some wording, it is time to speak up
Jan 13 16:18:59 boukepieter1: would be)
Jan 13 16:19:25 russdeffner: I think "Program" could work as 'agreed' upon
Jan 13 16:19:27 boukepieter1: And change the word from project to tile
Jan 13 16:19:37 BlakeGirardot_: Cristiano, here is a link to all the hackpad documents for HOT, there is a lot of good stuff in there, but there is no good sorting, just alpha
Jan 13 16:19:47 boukepieter1: thats a nice adaption in my opinion
Jan 13 16:19:59 BlakeGirardot_: https://hackpad.com/ep/group/G9rEeq8zxiU
Jan 13 16:20:00 Cristiano: Why tile?
Jan 13 16:20:08 Cristiano: Thanks Blake
Jan 13 16:20:11 althio: from project to tile, or from task to tile?
Jan 13 16:20:22 clairedelune: from task to tile I'd guess
Jan 13 16:20:27 boukepieter1: oh sorry
Jan 13 16:20:31 boukepieter1: yes task to tile
Jan 13 16:20:34 BlakeGirardot_: Personally? Why use tile when tile means something already related to mapping?
Jan 13 16:20:49 boukepieter1: i am getting confused ;p
Jan 13 16:20:54 BlakeGirardot_: tile is already used in our world... but... I am stepping out of that discussion
Jan 13 16:21:07 althio: boukepieter: understandable ;)
Jan 13 16:21:28 Cristiano: I think task is the correct term. Tile is more specific to the way it's organized in "squares"
Jan 13 16:21:30 boukepieter1: you mean the TMS tiles?
Jan 13 16:21:41 althio: well BlakeGirardot you are not stepping out
Jan 13 16:21:46 althio: please go on
Jan 13 16:21:48 Cristiano: Right, plus it may get confused with the imagery tiles
Jan 13 16:21:50 BlakeGirardot_: Ya, or any rendered tile
Jan 13 16:21:52 russdeffner: welcome to the terminology discussion - I've been confused for years now ;)
Jan 13 16:21:57 clairedelune: yes using "tile" could become somehow confusing too
Jan 13 16:22:02 clairedelune: ahaha
Jan 13 16:22:23 Cristiano: We could also have tasks in the future that are not just squares
Jan 13 16:22:33 BlakeGirardot_: I just have to let some stuff go althio :) I'll work with whatever everyone agree to. I do a lot of training and support so I am sensitive to terminology
Jan 13 16:22:36 Cristiano: - or maybe there are already -
Jan 13 16:22:41 boukepieter1: or just subtask then, to make the difference
Jan 13 16:22:42 clairedelune: we already have tasks which are not squared
Jan 13 16:22:57 Cristiano: OK :)
Jan 13 16:23:24 russdeffner: Your task is to take a tile
Jan 13 16:23:39 clairedelune: russdeffner ;)
Jan 13 16:23:54 Cristiano: So, to me it makes sense to go with Activation -> Project -> Task
Jan 13 16:24:23 pgiraud: hey
Jan 13 16:24:29 boukepieter1: hi
Jan 13 16:24:54 pgiraud: I'm sorry but I just figured out that you're talking about the terminology in the tasking manager
Jan 13 16:25:25 pgiraud: we had a meeting last friday with Kate and Nitika (the intern)
Jan 13 16:25:29 BlakeGirardot_: Cristiano, pgiraud is one of the main developers of the Tasking Manager
Jan 13 16:25:38 althio: well terminology everywhere and mostly in the tasking manager
Jan 13 16:25:58 pgiraud: we decided that the terms would be Program/Activation -> Project -> Tiles
Jan 13 16:26:28 pgiraud: the term Task would be used to explain the work to do (ie. map all the roads and buildings)
Jan 13 16:26:49 Cristiano: I see
Jan 13 16:27:09 Cristiano: instead of "instructions"?
Jan 13 16:27:40 pgiraud: well, this is a bit different
Jan 13 16:27:48 russdeffner: i.e. the Task for this Project is to map roads, take a Tile and get started :)
Jan 13 16:28:01 althio: sorry people to bring this topic back, I didn't know that a decision was made already
Jan 13 16:28:23 pgiraud: I couldn't attend the Tech working group meeting yesterday
Jan 13 16:28:26 russdeffner: althio - this was great, I hadn't realized a decision was made
Jan 13 16:28:39 pgiraud: but I told this to dodobas
Jan 13 16:28:49 russdeffner: and I think I can rework the HOT Guide with the new terms
Jan 13 16:28:55 pgiraud: and unfortunately he didn't have time to tell it back
Jan 13 16:29:24 pgiraud: russdeffner, you could probably wait just a bit till it's more official
Jan 13 16:29:46 * pgiraud is going back to work now
Jan 13 16:29:49 clairedelune: that's ok, we'll need to be careful in training materials to ditinguish between the project tiles and the imagery tiles, for beginners
Jan 13 16:29:49 russdeffner: pgiraud - sure, just note to self to start working in the new terms
Jan 13 16:30:41 althio: at our level, do we need to talk about tiles for imagery?
Jan 13 16:30:54 BlakeGirardot_: So I have to ask newbies what tile number they are working on?
Jan 13 16:31:14 russdeffner: so maybe "Job Tile" versus imagery tile?
Jan 13 16:31:15 BlakeGirardot_: so the term task is going away from the TASKing Manger?
Jan 13 16:31:33 clairedelune: job tile confuses me...
Jan 13 16:31:39 pgiraud: russdeffner, we don't talk about job any more
Jan 13 16:31:51 clairedelune: project tile
Jan 13 16:32:04 BlakeGirardot_: What project tile number are you working on?
Jan 13 16:32:18 althio: BlakeGirardot hmmm no, tasks is for the work to do, the entities to map
Jan 13 16:32:53 BlakeGirardot_: I really feel this wasn't talked out enough
Jan 13 16:32:57 russdeffner: ok, just to distinguish, I like project tile
Jan 13 16:33:28 russdeffner: when necessary to separate from imagery
Jan 13 16:33:29 BlakeGirardot_: It is making training/support more difficult than it needs to be. Or maybe I just don't like change, I don't know.
Jan 13 16:33:34 clairedelune: (I was only eventually getting used to v2 wording...)
Jan 13 16:33:34 maijin_: Stats are not really relevant only rewarding people that mark stuff as "done" :p
Jan 13 16:34:04 althio: tasks in project#222/tile#44 are: map roads & add POI:schools
Jan 13 16:34:21 clairedelune: I see things from the same side as you do BlakeGirardot_
Jan 13 16:34:30 BlakeGirardot_: Yes, I understand althio, I am saying now I have to ask a newbie what tile they are working on.
Jan 13 16:34:57 Cristiano: The actual URL structure in TM will have to change too, I wonder if we're going to have problems later for legacy with older projects once we switch to using tile instead of task
Jan 13 16:35:17 althio: eventually, when we proceed, not right now ;)
Jan 13 16:35:34 * BlakeGirardot_ nods vigorously and agreeable at Cristiano
Jan 13 16:35:59 althio: Cristiano:this has been handled already when switching from Job to Project
Jan 13 16:36:12 russdeffner: I just want to make sure of something - these changes are voted on at the Tech WG meetings?
Jan 13 16:36:19 BlakeGirardot_: And it took a rewrite of the entire software package althio
Jan 13 16:36:31 clairedelune: We'll need to update all activation wikipages for them to use the new terminology...
Jan 13 16:36:33 BlakeGirardot_: No, these changes are voted on no where
Jan 13 16:37:20 russdeffner: Then I'm not against them, but they definitely need to be documented/formalized to some degree
Jan 13 16:38:04 althio: If the tech people are willing to change the wording, I guess they are aware of the legacy problem and amount of work for them. I don't.
Jan 13 16:38:11 BlakeGirardot_: It is pretty important point, not something for 2 people and a new intern to just "decide". Granted, very important 2 people.
Jan 13 16:38:12 boukepieter1: back to topic?
Jan 13 16:38:37 Cristiano: Well, I understand the motivation behind changing the terminology, we probably just need to make sure they don't involve too much overhead work and that they are agreed by the HOT community
Jan 13 16:39:11 Cristiano: One last question about the TM: what is the best way to provide feedback and report issues with TM2?
Jan 13 16:39:22 althio: github
Jan 13 16:39:28 BlakeGirardot_: https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2
Jan 13 16:39:42 Cristiano: e.g. the tile/task outline is not displaying in PL2...
Jan 13 16:39:50 Cristiano: OK, got it
Jan 13 16:40:10 BlakeGirardot_: Yes, just create an "issue" on that repository
Jan 13 16:41:14 pgiraud: for all: there has been a lot of discussions around the terminology for years now with no real consensus and new coming people giving their own idea on the topic
Jan 13 16:41:27 BlakeGirardot_: Moveing right along :) Is there any further discussion of the TM or things activation coordinators might like from it?
Jan 13 16:41:42 russdeffner: so pgiraud - please get the terminology onto a working group agenda for an official adoption, that is the way we should do things that affect the community/organization
Jan 13 16:41:55 BlakeGirardot_: pgiraud: Yes, so lets formalize a process to decide, not use a google doc spreadsheet
Jan 13 16:42:37 pgiraud: sorry it was part of the intern's job to ask the community
Jan 13 16:42:37 BlakeGirardot_: and just pick with no formal community imput. If I had known a decsion was about to be made
Jan 13 16:42:43 BlakeGirardot_: I would have discussed it a lot more.
Jan 13 16:42:55 pgiraud: I know
Jan 13 16:42:56 BlakeGirardot_: It wasn't enough or clear it was about to be decided
Jan 13 16:43:09 BlakeGirardot_: It looked to me like it was her figuring out the terminolgy for herslef
Jan 13 16:43:22 BlakeGirardot_: not for the descion for the rest of the world
Jan 13 16:43:32 pgiraud: the internship will not last more than 3 months
Jan 13 16:43:47 pgiraud: and the intern was a bit stuck
Jan 13 16:43:54 pgiraud: we needed to go forward
Jan 13 16:44:14 BlakeGirardot_: With all due respect, that is not her fault
Jan 13 16:44:26 BlakeGirardot_: And we shouldn't get such changes because of that.
Jan 13 16:44:26 pgiraud: nope, we took the decision with Kate and myself
Jan 13 16:44:53 BlakeGirardot_: I understand, but it is a big deal
Jan 13 16:45:05 pgiraud: I know
Jan 13 16:45:07 boukepieter1: sorry, I quit, have to go home
Jan 13 16:45:18 BlakeGirardot_: And I did't realize her project was to rename the terms
Jan 13 16:45:39 BlakeGirardot_: It was to improve the TM home page, slightly ill defined I know
Jan 13 16:45:41 pgiraud: FYI, I accepted to co-mentor the project because I'm the main dev for the tasking manager
Jan 13 16:45:54 pgiraud: I didn't propose the project for the internship myself
Jan 13 16:45:59 BlakeGirardot_: but there are a lot of improvments to be made without any terminology change
Jan 13 16:46:24 BlakeGirardot_: I understand. Please forgive me
Jan 13 16:46:34 BlakeGirardot_: It was a tough spot all the way around.
Jan 13 16:46:39 pgiraud: we asked the intern to give the differents elements in the interface a name
Jan 13 16:46:45 pgiraud: and a description
Jan 13 16:47:36 pgiraud: the problem as well is that a lot of people commented the issues related to "home page improvements" in github
Jan 13 16:48:08 pgiraud: with a lot of information on how they would like the terminology to be changed
Jan 13 16:48:54 pgiraud: for now, I would say that the task -> tile change is not done yet
Jan 13 16:49:12 BlakeGirardot_: Ok, I understand pgiraud, please. It is just that this change does not make sense to be done just for the sake of doing it. and it literally invalidates all the existing documentation and tuorials
Jan 13 16:49:22 pgiraud: so nothing changes for now, except that we'll introduce a new "program/activation" thing
Jan 13 16:49:31 BlakeGirardot_: That sounds perfect pgiraud
Jan 13 16:49:46 BlakeGirardot_: it is really the 'task' 'tile' issue that would cause problems and confusion
Jan 13 16:49:56 clairedelune: thank you pgiraud for all the explanations too
Jan 13 16:50:01 BlakeGirardot_: Adding a layer above "project" totally makes sense
Jan 13 16:50:24 BlakeGirardot_: And I second claire, thank you very much for helping us understand this and what it means going forward.
Jan 13 16:50:59 clairedelune: anything else regarding activation WG?
Jan 13 16:51:29 BlakeGirardot_: Oh I'll just mention, I tried to make a list of things coordinators do
Jan 13 16:51:33 BlakeGirardot_: on the agenda hackpad
Jan 13 16:51:41 althio: I feel that I am a part of the problem here ;-) Please comment harshly against the change task/tile if you feel inclined to. Here: https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/477
Jan 13 16:52:14 clairedelune: yes I saw it in the hackpad, do you want us to continue/edit that list Blake?
Jan 13 16:52:18 BlakeGirardot_: so input and revisions much encouraged, maybe it needs to break out into a separate document.
Jan 13 16:53:07 BlakeGirardot_: The important thing is althio that the ability to group "projects" is going to get into the TM somehow and task/tile can be revisted later.
Jan 13 16:53:10 clairedelune: AndrewBuck, would you know of another already existing kind of list similar to that?
Jan 13 16:53:47 clairedelune: The list currently being here: https://hackpad.com/Activation-WG-Meeting-Jan-13-2014-Agenda-6wPNYZZIvrB
Jan 13 16:54:58 AndrewBuck: no, not aware of others
Jan 13 16:55:23 BlakeGirardot_: boukepieter, boukepieter1 : Sorry, I didn't see you leaving, thank you very much for attending.
Jan 13 16:55:37 clairedelune: Ok, thanks Andrew
Jan 13 16:56:01 russdeffner: had to step away, reading back...
Jan 13 16:56:03 BlakeGirardot_: Should I break it out into a seperate document? Is it worth doing that or just leaving it part of our notes?
Jan 13 16:56:40 clairedelune: Regarding current activation, there's this task already being worked on: http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/835 related to CAR activation (but located in DRC) where contributors would be welcome
Jan 13 16:57:00 russdeffner: yes, a huge thank you to pgiraud and all working on the TM
Jan 13 16:57:23 clairedelune: BlakeGirardot_ I think you could break it into a new one, but that's up to youo
Jan 13 16:57:57 BlakeGirardot_: I'll do it if seems like it will be a decent list to start work from.
Jan 13 16:58:06 BlakeGirardot_: so if you think it is ok, I will
Jan 13 16:58:56 russdeffner: there is a wiki on Activation, let me find it
Jan 13 17:00:01 russdeffner: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HOT_activation
Jan 13 17:00:26 clairedelune: yes, I think the wikipage could be most appropriate to place it but would need maybe to be reviewed/commented by a few more people first
Jan 13 17:00:48 BlakeGirardot_: Wow, yes, excellent page I had not seen before
Jan 13 17:00:54 clairedelune: so maybe not needed to break it into a new doc but to improve it a bit before posting it on the wiki
Jan 13 17:01:00 russdeffner: yes, it was the product of the several years ago AWG
Jan 13 17:01:09 russdeffner: not finalized by any means
Jan 13 17:01:14 BlakeGirardot_: clairedelune: I will do that, get some feed back
Jan 13 17:01:35 BlakeGirardot_: and then add it to the wiki after agreement it is correct
Jan 13 17:01:48 clairedelune: great
Jan 13 17:02:04 clairedelune: thank you all
Jan 13 17:02:24 BlakeGirardot_: Yes, thank you to everyone. I'll type up notes and post the log
Jan 13 17:02:45 clairedelune: thanks BlakeGirardot_!
Jan 13 17:02:54 russdeffner: Thanks!
Jan 13 17:02:59 althio: thanks eveyone
Jan 13 17:03:48 Cristiano: Thank you everyone, very interesting meeting
Jan 13 17:03:57 althio: I have question on imagery: how can we find out if there is good imagery available somewhere?
Jan 13 17:04:28 althio: not part of the meeting, but I fugure Activation people are the most familiar with this
Jan 13 17:05:05 Cristiano: Well, hopefully that will be something OAM will help with :)
Jan 13 17:05:58 althio: I would like to know specifically if Congo-Brazzaville has better imagery (available/open/free) than Bing
Jan 13 17:06:28 althio: But of course I am also interested in the how to know
Jan 13 17:06:51 russdeffner: that is one aspect that OpenAerialMap is proposed to help with
Jan 13 17:07:09 russdeffner: personally don't know of a current solution
Jan 13 17:07:43 Cristiano: That would probably require some research through different channels, and then making sure the imagery found has a compatible license
Jan 13 17:09:06 BlakeGirardot_: There is a way althio, I have that same question.
Jan 13 17:09:18 BlakeGirardot_: It is the one part of activation coordination I have not worked with yet
Jan 13 17:09:26 BlakeGirardot_: Well that and liason with ngos
Jan 13 17:09:30 Cristiano: Digital Globe and other satellite imagery providers have plenty of imagery, which in some cases has been made available for HOT efforts
Jan 13 17:09:47 BlakeGirardot_: But we have a process, I think there is one person who sort of does imagery coordination
Jan 13 17:10:03 BlakeGirardot_: I have seen it mentioned, but just not followed up with it as there was other stuff for me to dl.
Jan 13 17:10:04 BlakeGirardot_: do
Jan 13 17:10:18 russdeffner: maybe someone from MapBox is one here? alexbarth ? they'd probably know
Jan 13 17:10:24 russdeffner: *on
Jan 13 17:12:07 althio: are you still there AndrewBuck? I can also ask on the list
Jan 13 17:12:33 Cristiano: OK guys, I got to get going. Thanks for organizing this meeting. Ciao!
Jan 13 17:12:50 althio: ciao Cristiano
Jan 13 17:12:51 russdeffner: thanks for attending!
Jan 13 17:13:44 althio: I stay tuned for any answer ;) but really I am about to go away
Jan 13 17:15:10 BlakeGirardot_: Cheers,
Jan 13 17:16:12 russdeffner: I'm shifting gears as well, chat with you all later
Jan 13 17:16:15 BlakeGirardot_: I have seen talk about on the email list, I just didn't pay any attention
Jan 13 17:16:24 BlakeGirardot_: Thank you for coming russ
Jan 13 17:23:30 russdeffner: Doing great work there BlakeGirardot_ !
Jan 13 17:24:32 BlakeGirardot_: Thank you for the kind words russ, I need them :)
Jan 13 17:25:02 BlakeGirardot_: I do want to apologize to everyone, I did not mean to let my passion for HOT get the better of me today.
Jan 13 17:25:22 clairedelune: althio, BlakeGirardot_ Regarding imagery requests there's a group involving some HOT people and people from mapbox, HIU and more... it's not like anyone can ask anything in the name of HOT, there's a process and as some humanitarian needs with the request coming from humanitarian orgs working in the field
Jan 13 17:25:55 clairedelune: and as the requests are quite numerous and space on the servers limited, priority is given to the most urgent needs
Jan 13 17:26:09 clairedelune: I'm expecting a lot from OAM too
Jan 13 17:26:12 BlakeGirardot_: Interesting claire.
Jan 13 17:26:45 clairedelune: let me know by mail preferably if you have some additionnal questions as I won't be staying n IRC tonight I think
Jan 13 17:27:41 BlakeGirardot_: Ok, will do claire, I would like to learn the process just so I know it
Jan 13 17:28:22 BlakeGirardot_: But that is partly why I haven't payed any attention, it just is a couple levels above my involvement so far :)
Jan 13 17:28:39 BlakeGirardot_: #661 is almost done!
Jan 13 17:29:45 BlakeGirardot_: AndrewBuck helped me out with mapping water so I can validate the last couple of tasks that have a lot of big river and streams and such
Jan 13 17:32:02 russdeffner: thanks clairedelune I was thinking I'd seen something about being able to tell where/what existing imagery coverage there was, not the whole requesting new imagery process
Jan 13 17:32:21 russdeffner: I think that's what althio was after
Jan 13 17:32:31 BlakeGirardot_: There is a public something that shows the Bing hires coverage
Jan 13 17:34:18 BlakeGirardot_: But also as far as I know if you really want to be sure you have to zoom to ... something like 900m in josm, the exact point that hi-res loads but has the largest view area and then "drive" back and forth over an area to see what bing has
Jan 13 17:34:52 BlakeGirardot_: At least that is what I have been doing with DRC, which is one large country.
Jan 13 17:35:51 russdeffner: maybe I'm just thinking about the OAM design conversations though :)
Jan 13 17:36:36 russdeffner: I know in my area they mapbox imagery is more recent at certain zoom levels
Jan 13 17:36:49 russdeffner: but that was found by trial
Jan 13 17:37:18 BlakeGirardot_: I wonder if OAM will do that, help coordinate imagery coverage and dates and such
Jan 13 17:40:00 russdeffner: It's been a while since I was part of any of those conversations, but in my mind's eye I see layers of imagery that you can compare (or a bit uglier scene of metadata sorting/filtering)
Jan 13 17:42:44 hebolz: exit
Jan 13 17:43:49 BlakeGirardot_: The cool part is Cristiano is a real expert in the area
Jan 13 17:44:15 BlakeGirardot_: So I have a lot of confidence the relaunched OAM will be great.
Jan 13 17:45:45 mkl: hi saw some discussion of imagery coordination earlier
Jan 13 17:46:35 mkl: this wiki section roughly documents the process as it is http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HOT_activation#Imagery_Coordination
Jan 13 17:47:38 mkl: anyone can tee up a request
Jan 13 17:48:32 mkl: could definitely use help from OAM with doing comparisons. part of the issue though, is that DG catalog is not easy to integrate with other systems
Jan 13 17:48:49 BlakeGirardot_: Oh that is exactly what I was looking for mkl
Jan 13 17:49:31 mkl: yea, it's a bit hidden. all this activation coordination docs could use a refresh, which i guess is planned actually
Jan 13 17:50:25 BlakeGirardot_: Well, we are working on it, more from the the training aspect, how to help bring someone up on running an activation, but it is a big job to run an activation.
Jan 13 17:50:40 BlakeGirardot_: Running indivdual projects would be a good practice
Jan 13 17:51:22 BlakeGirardot_: There is an imagery-coordination group email? I don't want it, I am just asking, that part is still correct info?
Jan 13 17:51:53 russdeffner: hello mkl - yes, these working groups are really working, seen lots of progress - baby steps maybe, but definitely making things happen
Jan 13 17:53:00 BlakeGirardot_: Yes, this is the imagery request process I have seen discussed, this is exactly what I was thinking of.
Jan 13 17:53:41 russdeffner: oh, ha - that's part of that Activation documentation
Jan 13 17:54:35 BlakeGirardot_: I know, I hadn't gotten down there yet :) That document is really nice. I think it forms the base of any "how to run an activation" document we have been discussing
Jan 13 17:55:19 BlakeGirardot_: We have so much good info and it is not even that spread around, it is just a lot of stuff :)
Jan 13 17:55:28 russdeffner: I think we can get that cleaned up and formalized in the next couple of meetings
Jan 13 17:56:39 BlakeGirardot_: It actually gives me an idea for a moodle course: "Love HOT? Things you should read"
Jan 13 17:56:55 mkl: imagery-coord@h....m.org is the email address for the group
Jan 13 17:58:05 mkl: when i last read through this closely, i thought there was still work to do on clarification of terms, and just organizing into a clear document. there were also some parts of activation not yet addressed.
Jan 13 18:00:29 russdeffner: yeah, work still to do, but I think if we make it a continuing agenda item until finished, it should be done by summer I would hope
