Old 2006 IRC meeting logs/20060808/Log

	<Etienne>	Who's here for the meeting?
	* jbglaw	is here.
	<MWelchUK>	Oh, a meeting!
	<nickw>	nickw: here for a short while though I need to go out quite soon...
	* MWelchUK	will stick around
	* eriso	is watching Midsomer Murderers and may be participating
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: Please do, everyone is welcome, its an open meeting
	<jbglaw>	So where will we start right now?
	<Etienne>	The idea is to field questions about any aspect of mapping using OSM and to share tips and tricks.
	<Etienne>	Lets start with maing GPS tracks.
	<Etienne>	s/maing/making/
	<jbglaw>	I don't actually have all that much routine to share, mere some questions about eg. software and the server side.
	<Etienne>	Ask away
	<jbglaw>	That seems simple: I'm eg. using a laptop (in the car) and some GPS mouse.
	<MWelchUK>	I'm having had a fair amount of luck with a Bluetooth GPS unit and my Symbian Phone.
	<eriso>	I guess recording tracks is quite simple, but I wonder what you do with the after wards?
	<Etienne>	I find best results by bicycle with track log set to 1 second intervals.
	<jbglaw>	But lets stay at track recording for a while.
	<eriso>	sure
	<jbglaw>	I'd love to have an even more mobile device (compared to a laptop), eg. some kind of Linux-based PDA.
	<Etienne>	I convert mine from NMEA to GPX and upload them to OSM in totally unedited form.
	<MWelchUK>	Best I can do is 5 sec intervals with the software I have, This gives very good lines when walking.
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: same here
	<eriso>	etienne: but if you been outside a way or path?
	<jbglaw>	I either use NMEA->GPS or Gpsdrive.
	<jbglaw>	NMEA->GPX of course.
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: I've been meaning to look into Familiar with GPSDrive on the iPaq
	<jbglaw>	How expensive are these?
	<eriso>	I either turn off logging or edit the gpx afterwards, when I´ve been hunting for geocaches
	<Etienne>	I don't edit the tracks because I believe that there is more value in preserving the original source than in providing a sanitised version.
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	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: I got given mine. Had Pocket PC on it.
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: That's cheap indeed.
	<jbglaw>	I wouldn't fear eg. driver writing or so, kernel hacking is where I'm from.
	<eriso>	etienne: I find it harder to draw then
	<jbglaw>	But I wouldn't spend a fortune for it :->
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: What exact iPaq model do you have?
	<Etienne>	Some people will edit their tracks to remove their home location or some place they want to keep private.
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: 5550 - they seem to be going for about £100-150 on eBay ATM
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: Your currency symbol doesn't show properly here. Is that US-$, UK-Pound or EURos?
	<tim_w>	i use j2me product called GETrack on my mobile phone, a globalsat bluetooth GPS and my feet
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: UKP
	<MWelchUK>	I have GPE installed on it. GPE uses X and GTK
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: ...and what types of I/O interfaces does it have (bulid-in GPS? USB for eg. GPS mouse and a hugh memory stick?)
	<MikeS>	are there any tips for "GPS walking" in city centers? I know that reception is not as good as in the open field, but my GPS unit becomes rather deaf and the track unusable.
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: Bluetooth wifi and MMC/SD
	<eriso>	anyone here who runs pocket pc / windows mobile and has done any scripting or something to ease up the track recording? I´m using beeline gps and have to name the track log etc every time and I find it time consuming...
	<jbglaw>	eriso: No windows, sorry...
	<MWelchUK>	eriso: Sorry - removed Pocket PC as soon as I got my PDA.
	<tim_w>	eriso, try a product called VisualGPS
	<Etienne>	Who here is a systematic mapper (ie does all roads in an area) or a casual mapper (ie just does the places that they were going to anyway)?
	* JibberJim	is a very casual mapper
	<tim_w>	at heart, I think i am a systematic mapper
	<MWelchUK>	I tend to map my journeys, occasionally taking detours to get other roads.
	<jbglaw>	casual
	<nickw>	Well I tend to do things in a "semi-systematic" way - i.e. I go where I feel like going that day, but try to focus on one of a range of areas. more satisfying to gradually build up one or more areas than do things very piecemeal.
	<eriso>	tim_w: I think beeline gps is visual gps with support for geocaches.. I would like to be able to start and stop the track recording with one button and also name the tracklog with date and time, automatically.
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	<Etienne>	I map systematically by bicycle, but map casually by car - my green credentials make it difficult to justify taking a five mile detour just to record track points.
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: From what I understand the device can be hacked to work as a USB master. I.e. it has the USB hardware, just doesn't have the connector to the outside
	<tim_w>	is it best to edit the gpx files first before uploading, to make it smoother? Also, do you upload as tracks to the website via the form, or via josm, or another tool?
	<jbglaw>	I'd probably collect more data once I find a useable PDA (not too expensive and enough shock resistive to survive a motorcycle trip)...
	<JibberJim>	jbglaw - http://sdgpsdatalogger.blogspot.com/ is what I'm waiting for, he's building it!
	<JibberJim>	of course it's not a PDA
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: Sounds interesting...
	<MWelchUK>	tim_w: You can't upload the GPX files via JOSM
	<tim_w>	ahh, ok
	<Etienne>	tim_w: I never edit my GPX files - that distorts the data and someone may want to process them with DGPS or something later.
	<MWelchUK>	tim_w: But it does provide a useful tool for mass-editing
	<nick_>	hello everyone, I'm going to be in and out a bit tonight I'm afraid
	<nickw>	On the other hand editing GPX files can remove extraneous things like a visit to a pub garden off route. Someone might create segments out of that, mistakenly. Generally I tend to only leave recognised "ways" in the GPX.
	<jbglaw>	JibberJim: Sounds interesting, too.
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	<MikeS>	what is DPGS?
	<MikeS>	DGPS
	<JibberJim>	aren't the pub garden a good thing to map?
	<nick_b>	DGPS is differential GPS
	<tim_w>	differential GPS, enables more accurate positioning
	<Etienne>	I upload my tracks *after* I have created ways and segments in JOSM not before. This is so that I can see what tracks were there before I started.
	<MWelchUK>	nickw: I'd only map stuff I didn't know if I knew the area and there was quite a bit of data, so things like this shouldn't be an issue
	<nick_b>	its a way of correcting a GPS signal for ionospheric interference, using a base station receiver and a roaming receiver
	<MikeS>	k
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Yeah - I tend to do that as well. Or upload at the same time.
	<Etienne>	nickw: Chopping bits out is different from *changing* values or removing seemingly spurious points.
	<eriso>	I also upload after I´ve edited. It´s easier to see your own current track in JOSM then
	<tim_w>	Is it assumed that the person uploading tracks, should also create the ways/segments, do people wait a bit, then do it. Is there an editing etiquette, in other words?
	<Etienne>	It would be nice if each track was identifiable in JOSM.
	<jbglaw>	Will there be a transcript of this session? That way I wouldn't need to make any notes...
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: Get your client to log.
	<JibberJim>	Etienne can't you just load the tracks from local aswell as remote, and that way colour them how you want?
	<JibberJim>	that's what I did
	<Etienne>	tim_w: At the moment there is not much chance of a collision because there are not that many users yet.
	<eriso>	etienne: not only for JOSM? No user can see where a point belongs, or?
	<Etienne>	JibberJim: yes, but if I have uploaded mine then I can't see what was there before - I need a way to subtract mine from what is there - I think that is different from adding in a different colour - although if I make mine the same colour as the background maybe that would work.
	<JibberJim>	ah right, I see what you mean
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: I think that is a very important "todo" - revision control.
	<jbglaw>	So we seem to go on to data management.
	<tim_w>	would having more tracks that cover the same road useful. for example, by foot on either side on the footpath, by car on both lanes?
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	<jbglaw>	I'm not yet sure how that could/should look like at the end.
	<Etienne>	tim_w: I think it is OK to mark up tracks that have not been done yet. There are a lot in Central London that were donated by eCourier - they are all up for grabs.
	* Blackadder_uk	is back
	<MWelchUK>	tim_w: Yes - It becomes a *lot* easier to map a road once you have driven/walked down it a few times.
	* mcn	waves; just remembered about this mtg...
	<jbglaw>	One thing I'm concerned about is server speed. OSM is doggy slow at some time...
	<tim_w>	great stuff, thanks MWelchUK and Etienne
	<Etienne>	tim_w: ...especially if you know the area well - I ofter record tracks for places I'm passing through - but don't know well enough to tag up properly
	<Etienne>	jbglaw: Are you using the applet?
	<jbglaw>	Etienne: Sometimes.
	<jbglaw>	Etienne: I did the scale bar. But the whole downloading seems a bit slow, not especially for the applet.
	<Etienne>	jbglaw: I think you'll find that using JOSM is much much quicker than the applet. I have never found the applet to be fast enough to be usable.
	<jbglaw>	One thing are the tiles.
	<tim_w>	so JOSM, OSMeditor, and the online applet, do people use all three, or stick with one of them, use different ones for different tasks?
	* eriso	only uses JOSM
	<MWelchUK>	tim_w: I tend to use JOSM all the time
	<Etienne>	tim_w: JOSM
	<Blackadder_uk>	I use JOSM for everything except when I need some landsat infill. For instance I just used it today to trace the outline of Malham Tarn
	<jbglaw>	I'm not sure which one it was, but one of the two seems to not being "ported" to the latest Qt release yet.
	<Blackadder_uk>	Thats the applet I mean
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: That would be OSMeditor
	* mcn	only uses JOSM
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: JOSM is a Java1.5 app
	<jbglaw>	Always mix that up:)
	<jbglaw>	Java as well as Qt just look so bloated to a C programmer...
	* MWelchUK	notes with joy that the house he is moving to next week has no OSM coverage!
	<Etienne>	tim_w: Even for roads that have already been mapped it is still useful to record tracklogs and upload them.
	<tim_w>	really?
	<MWelchUK>	jbglaw: I know what you mean ;-)
	<Blackadder_uk>	I had to delete a number of poor additional segments along the M6 north of Chester today. Someone had obvioulsy converted the gpx track of very sparse points to nodes and segments.
	<jbglaw>	And at some time, I'd probably joyfully profile the tile code...
	<Blackadder_uk>	I second Etienne there. The more gpx tracks we have over the same route the better
	<nickw>	Generally I only use osmeditor2 (having said that I wrote it....) , but I may well use the applet if it coloured different way types differently and showed POIs as icons. Hopefully (as long as enough people are using the applet to make it worthwhile) I will work on this in the next few weeks.
	<nickw>	BTW osmeditor2 does work with the latest qt release :-)
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: I really don't rate automated segments
	<jbglaw>	Some C code in there, some intelligent proxying+loadbalancing and it'll run like a cat :)
	<eriso>	has anyone run osmeditor on mac os x?
	<nickw>	jbglaw - C's OK, but I prefer OO for full blown apps...
	<Blackadder_uk>	MWelchUK: me neither. It has its uses but its a pain if its used over the top of existing data which is good
	<Etienne>	I revisited some roads that had been mapped when only a few points had been uploaded - six months later there were a lot more points and it was possible to realign the road using the additional data.
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: Found some rather useless tracks down the M6
	<jbglaw>	Ah, colours and the Java applet. I'm red-green blind and it's sometimes tricky for me to recognize/separate these colours. A colour chooser would be perfect for that...
	<jbglaw>	nickw: But lets face it: the map services code isn't such a large code base that you'd need all that runtime bloat.
	<Blackadder_uk>	nickw: work on the applet would be great. It serves a basic function right now but it needs a few more simple features and rendering output for easy use by the wider OSM base
	<nickw>	while on the subject of editors, what do people think are the most desired features for complete newbies to osm? one of the things I really want to do is to make OSM really easy for countryside users (walkers, off road cyclists) to contribute data and draw maps. this would probably entail working on theapplet/osmeditor2/ both further.
	<Etienne>	Blackadder_uk: Agreed - automated segments takes all the fun out of it
	<jbglaw>	nickw: You'll greatly improve runtime if you can keep a statically allocated object array instead of constructing/deconstructing them all the time.
	<MWelchUK>	nickw: The ability to get an account and upload traces.
	<jbglaw>	nickw: There was some link sent to the mailing list some weeks ago with some software that rasters the GPS data and constructs streets out of it.
	<MWelchUK>	nickw: Though TBH, I think that we need some centralised usernames and paswords...
	<tim_w>	I found imi's movies of josm really really useful. Screencasts, movies showing the basics is very good for newbies
	<jbglaw>	nickw: I don't remember the name, but for a start, the idea looks promising.
	<jbglaw>	nickw: Maybe it would be a good idea to try that once, auto-vectorizing/quanitfizing the GPS data.
	<Etienne>	Can we move on to the topic of tagging segments and ways please?
	<nickw>	jbglaw: true, though the data would still need to be tagged somehow.
	<eriso>	tim_w: be too, I´t really got me into JOSM fast.
	<jbglaw>	nickw: Sure. It doesn't do all the work for you :)
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: On that topic, I'd like to suggest that we really need more standardisation.
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: Full ACK.
	<Blackadder_uk>	tim_w: It is very likley that JOSM will be more suitable for first time OSM users as it's interface matures. By moveing more of the tagging stuff under the hood (using presets) and better download and upload of data to OSM
	<nickw>	Re tagging. I agree standardisation is important (from the point of view of renderers) though map features aims to do that.
	<jbglaw>	MWelchUK: ...and more hints when choosing a street type. What's actually a "secondary road"?
	<tim_w>	ok. Does everything have to be tagged, or can a user be lazy and not tag anything. Linked into that, is it ok for a user to re-tag existing things
	<MWelchUK>	Yeah - We need more info on what qualifies as what.
	<mcn>	un the UK a "secondary road" is a B road, but of course that is different for every country
	<Blackadder_uk>	There has been some suggestion to move away from tagging the "class" of the street and rather to tag the physical properties
	<mcn>	so I like the idea of namespaces
	<Etienne>	When I joined OSM there seemed to be a predominant agreement that there should be no mandated tagging. I think this has been misinterpreted as there shold be no standardisation.
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: What is a B road?
	<nickw>	Blackadder_uk: yes I agree about moving tagging under the hood and using predefined types. Many of the editors do this already though the old "class" scheme is still used in the applet.
	<tim_w>	Blackadder_uk, very true. The applet, however could be easier for new online users to use wherever and whenever
	<MWelchUK>	How would you work it out without a map?
	<nickw>	MWelchUK: tagging?
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: not an A road or a Motorway, or a C road, or a byway, or private ;-)
	<Blackadder_uk>	I'm looking at that aspect for Map Features within JOSM so that users (if they wish) only need to difine what the street is and the rest is done under the hood
	<jbglaw>	tim_w: I think the applet is easy to use, if it was faster.
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: That would be good.
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: There is a guide here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:highway with pictures and everything
	<nickw>	What would be useful I think is an international set of predefined types documented somewhere (e.g. bridleways are UK only, "GR" routes are France only I believe, etc....)
	<Blackadder_uk>	The "highway" tag is just the tip of the iceberg. It was created with UK and english tagging in mind and that doesnt easilt translate directly
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Yeah - I eventually found that when I looked - though itwas too hidden TBH
	<mcn>	in the UK it should be easy to convert road type to map features, with a direct mapping somewhere, although "trunk" road could be anything, as they are not actually labelled
	<Etienne>	tim_w: I think its OK to do as much or as little as you want. I tag post boxes and telephones, but I don't tag the number of lanes or the height limit of bridges, for example.
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	<Blackadder_uk>	So really it would be better if there was a tagging syntax which was location specific and then the syntax was used to create the keys and values
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	<jbglaw>	Blackadder_uk: Sounds "interesting" to implement... *cough*
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: By country?
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: Thats about where I am at too.
	<Blackadder_uk>	MWelchUK: Language and Country potentially
	<jbglaw>	Blackadder_uk: Based on LC_ALL?
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: I agree.
	<nickw>	Need to go now, so I'll just round off on tagging - I'm generally happy with Map Features as it stands, but there are one or two anomalous things e.g. "highway=bridleway" is duplicating the permissions tag "foot=yes; horse=yes". I think the highway tag should represent the physical type of path (e.g. footway, track) not its permissions.
	<mcn>	so really you want internally to OSM "road type 1" "road type 2", etc, then you want "UK:motorway => road type 1", "DE:autobahn => road type 1"
	<Blackadder_uk>	Cheers Nick
	<mcn>	but there might be several different road types that are motorways for different countries?
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	<jbglaw>	mcn: Sounds like an idea.
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: I don't think and internal labeling is necessary.
	<mcn>	well, not necessarily internal labelling
	<mcn>	but something like way_type=N, which doesn't make much sense without another thing that says in the UK, and for a Motorway, N= ?
	<Etienne>	mcn: I think the problem is more subtle than that - there have been discussions about differentiating between physical and administrative classifications - I think eachcountry/jurisdiction has a different set of administrative classifications.
	<MWelchUK>	Just a list of tags (with short descriptons) to be used in each geographical area.
	<mcn>	Etienne: hmm, yes
	<Etienne>	So how are people tagging things at the moment?
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: I cannot be too strict. Keeping it simple. So for example a person tagging a UK motorway would find the single action of that would label the width, number or lanes,speed restriction, etc etc with a single click. In Germany the same would apply but the parameters would be different
	<jbglaw>	Etienne: Best effort... Confused about the street types.
	<f_mohr>	but the physical classification might be easily seperated into general classes
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Building ways for each road, giving them a name and highway type.
	<mcn>	so you could have "way_physical=X" and "way_political=Y", and then something that says "UK:Motorway=X+Y" for use in an editor, such as the JOSM annotation presets
	<Etienne>	I mainly use highway, ref, name, image, waterway, amenity, leisure
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	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk: yes, that sounds good
	<f_mohr>	@blackadder_uk .. not too different
	<jbglaw>	Is it planned to also incorporate traffic signs? Things like speed limits.
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	* mcn	generally uses highway, ref, name, amenity
	<tim_w>	how do people use the image tag? Link to an externally hosted image for the location (postbox, street sign) etc?
	<Blackadder_uk>	The keys I use most right now are: highway, waterway, railway, amenity
	<jbglaw>	...or the number of parallel tracks in each direction?
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: I would have thought marking the road as "highway=UK:Motorway" would be sufficient, if that is defined somewhere else.
	<mcn>	and i've used "url" once (to tag the url of an private railway)
	<f_mohr>	thats already in the wiki
	<Etienne>	jbglaw: you know, if you are interested in something then devise a scheme and use it. If others like it they will also use your scheme.
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: I like the idea of "UK:motorway", "DE:autobahn", etc..
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: yes, if "UK:Motorway" can be looked up in a table to define the physical and political definition
	<mcn>	that sounds good, actually
	<tim_w>	how about the A1(M)
	<mcn>	UK:motorway
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: As in on the MAp Features page and parsed into an XML dexcription?
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: yes, something like that
	<MWelchUK>	tim_w: It's a motorway
	<Etienne>	tim_w: image=80n:dsc05671.jpg where 80n: is my personal namespace identifier (its my OSM user name).
	<Blackadder_uk>	MWelchUK: Those are just names, and yes it would be useful to have what a german calls a UK Motorway, primary road, etc etc but these dont have to be in the tagging. They can be a clinet interface mechanism
	<tim_w>	i see
	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk: it could either be a client thing, or it could be tags that are translated via an (XML?) file when drawn
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: indeed
	<mcn>	in some way the tags that are converted when drawn are better, as they are more consistent
	<mcn>	i think
	<f_mohr>	just a silly question .. wheres the difference between UK:motorway, FR:autoroute and DE:autobahn (for the user)?
	<MWelchUK>	Blackadder_uk: No - I was thinking that Motorways in the UK should be defined as "UK:motorway", actually probably "GB:motorway" and autobahns in Germany be labeled "DE:autobahn"
	* mcn	thinks it should be UK. GB doesn't include northern ireland, which IIRC uses the same road schemes?
	<Blackadder_uk>	f_mohr: Mostly the differences are subtle (well apart from you drive on the wrong side on a motorway)
	<MWelchUK>	f_mohr: the laws that goven them
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: Ah, but in the iso letering UK is Ukraine
	<Etienne>	f_mohr: for a German speaker DE:autobahn is easier than UK:motorway - so it lowers the barrier to entry
	<mcn>	I think the side of the road should be derived from the segment direction
	<f_mohr>	not too many .. except max speed
	<Blackadder_uk>	But in moct countries there are defined standards for each road type. A motorway in the UK has lanes of a specific width and the speed limit is 70mph
	<MWelchUK>	f_mohr: In france it depends on the weather...
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: really? ok. someone messed that up for domain names then (although I know we've got .gb too, but not used)
	<Blackadder_uk>	Yes there are exceptions but these are small compared to the majority
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: Yup - it's the anomilly ;-)
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: Ah, but in the IANA scheme UK is United Kingdom
	<mcn>	so somewhere there should be a table that defines "UK:motorway" -> speed=70mph, carriageways=2, hard_shoulder=yes, no_stopping=yes, etc
	<mcn>	the question is just whether this table is in the clients that _create_ the maps (i.e. JOSM, etc) or the programs that _draw_ maps (i.e. osmarender)
	<f_mohr>	is a "by weather" restriction defined in the wiki? here in germany we have a lot of speed restrictions that only apply if it rains
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Right, but I would concider that a work arround. The UK only has UK because it started using it way before the Global internet was thought about.
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: Now think about other tupes of tagging and the same approach can be applied. A post_box is a post_box in all countries but its emphasis and usage is different in each
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	<MWelchUK>	mcn: Which doesn't always work. Sometimes motorways have 2-4 carrageways.
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: er? really
	<mcn>	they might have 2-4 lanes
	<mcn>	but generally only two carriageways
	<MWelchUK>	mcn: Yeah - sorry.
	<Etienne>	Anyone using ways to create areas?
	<Blackadder_uk>	MWelchUK: Right, so in these cases you overide the specific key/value, in this case changing the default "3" to 2 or 4
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Can you?
	<mcn>	anything else is a sliproad
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: Yes, have started doing that
	<f_mohr>	how?
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: Sliproads are rather special in temselves because of where motorway regulation starts and ends
	<mcn>	Etienne: yes, for a couple of car parks and a waterway
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: Yes, just tag a way with, say, landuse=forest and Osmarender will fill it in
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Sweet!
	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk: yes, generally a sliproad is motorway regulations here, though (assuming it's a motorway sliproad)
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	<Blackadder_uk>	f_mohr: Osmarender rules has certain feature "keys" which it sees as areas. For instance natural=water
	<Blackadder_uk>	for a lake
	<mcn>	sliproads that are not motorway regs should really be labelled trunk_link, I guess, rather than motorway_link
	<Etienne>	There's currently a proposal to drop the server side implementation of Areas because they can be implemented using Ways.
	<Blackadder_uk>	brb
	<mcn>	actually the "natural=water" I tagged is really a man-made reservoir, which seemed a bit silly tagging as "natural"...
	<f_mohr>	i'd need it for some places ..
	<mcn>	but that's easy to fix with a different tag name
	<mcn>	it works nicely though
	<Etienne>	mcn: I think we are missing tags for reservoir, gravel_pit (flooded), etc
	<mcn>	Etienne: yes
	<Etienne>	There are several very large reservoirs to the SW of London that I'll be needing to tag soon
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	<mcn>	we have several reservoirs in leicestershire too, although I'm not sure how I can actually map them...!
	* mcn	won't swim round them, that's for sure
	<Etienne>	mcn: there's a cycle track around Rutland Water
	<mcn>	I think we are also missing tags for "country park" type things
	<mcn>	Etienne: yes, I did that a few months ago. now i've got fitter mapping the town I could probably do it again and not nearly die ;-)
	<tim_w>	mcn, Blackadder said he used the lansat coverage and the applet to do Malham Tarn (lake) outline
	<mcn>	but it doesn't follow the water's edge
	<tim_w>	landsat/
	<mcn>	ah, that's an idea
	* mcn	needs landsat in JOSM
	<Etienne>	mcn: Which town?
	<mcn>	Loughborough
	<mcn>	one reservoir is at 52.69529591093422 -1.1907142980204675 (Cropston reservoir)
	<Etienne>	I've been tagging roundabouts with highway=whatever, junction=roundabout. But this means that I have to create a separate way for the roundabout and a separate way for each bit of road between roundabouts.
	* mcn	has been doing that too
	<mcn>	but you could create disconnected ways (I don't, as I think it is messy)
	<Etienne>	mcn: agreed - disconnected ways doesn't seem right to me.
	<Etienne>	There still seem to be server problems with very long ways so I don't mind creating several ways for one "road"
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	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Just reading though the talk:Map_Features page. What are your feelings to adding a namespace for the "core" keys?
	<mcn>	i have tagged a few parts of the M1 as two ways between each junction (one for each carriageway)
	<Etienne>	In fact, I try not to create ways with more than about 25 segments initially.
	<MWelchUK>	like: <tag k="core:highway" v="GB:motorway"/>
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: I think it would be a good thing.
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: so "core" is the key namespace, and "GB" is then the value namespace?
	<mcn>	that sounds good
	<Etienne>	mcn: It seems natural to start a new way at each motorway junction. That way they dont get too long.
	<MWelchUK>	Yes - That way the value should definately be valid for "core" and we can provide separate name spaces for each country (By ISO code) that way we can easily define what a GB motorway is and what a DE autobahn is
	<MWelchUK>	We can also trawl the database for invalid fields easily.
	<MWelchUK>	In terms of "core" anyway"
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: So all tags in the core namespace have to conform to whatever rules are defined for the core namespace?
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: Yes
	* jbglaw	waves
	<MWelchUK>	Else there's little point trying to define standards
	<mcn>	i like the idea that anyone can use any tags, as it makes it easy to add things that are as yet unsupported, but I think there should also be some fixed tags that are well defined, and even enforced. namespaces like this give a nice easy way of doing it
	<mcn>	namespaces can even then be heirarchical to an extent, i.e. I can tag personal stuff with "user:mcn:whatever", for example
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: It also makes it easier to write an editor for a speciic task
	<jbglaw>	mcn: I think that just came from a missing data design initially...
	* mcn	agrees
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	<mcn>	jbglaw: sorry, I don't understand, you mean "map features" should have been sorted out before stuff was initially created
	<MWelchUK>	Shall I add this to the Talk:Map_Features page?
	<Etienne>	MWelchUK: please do
	<jbglaw>	mcn: Jap. Define a standard for the things we'd have a common understanding of, and design it so that it can be extended.
	<Etienne>	Is anyone using historical maps or other sources of information to help with tagging etc?
	<jbglaw>	mcn: We started with the extensions, but didn't initally settle on the common standards...
	<almien>	Etienne: nope, it seems weird to be relying on OS, even if something is out of copyright
	<f_mohr>	didnt find any that matches the current situation
	<mcn>	jbglaw: ok :-)
	<mcn>	Etienne: only been mapping what i've been recording myself so far
	<mcn>	i've wondered about writing to the council and asking for a list of trunk roads in the county, though...
	<Etienne>	I take a lot of photos of street names and road signs, but I don't use any out-of-copyright stuff
	<Etienne>	mcn: This site might be useful: http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/
	<almien>	would be nice to have *proper historical* borders, for doing "show me a map of europe in year x" for wikipedia...
	<mcn>	i have been writing down or remembering street names, although I guess photos would be better for "proof" if it was needed
	<f_mohr>	that would be nice
	* mcn	remembers street names fairly well
	<almien>	notebook and waypoints
	<almien>	"112: high street"
	<bigbro>	Aye - notebook and waypoints is the way forward when walking. Not too easy on a bike though.
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: by the time you are deep into a housing devlopment its really difficult to remember names. A camera is indispecible for thses
	<Etienne>	SteveC uses a dictaphone - probably quiickest when cycling
	<almien>	harder to edit when you have to listen to tapes
	<Etienne>	I tried taking photos while moving but a) the photos come out blurred and b) it seemed a bit dangerous
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: I will be using Historical Mapping in places, but principally as a means of filling in for bad GPS areas (eg central Birmingham) and to add historical POI data
	* almien	taped a video camera to passenger-seat's headrest
	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk: yes, although between me and my wife (we've both lived here at least 10 years) we know a lot of road names now, so there are only a few to remember. I can see how it would get worse in a bigger place, though.
	<Etienne>	almien: Could you read street names from that?
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: I used to use a dictaphone when surveying out in the field (non OSM stuff) but I find a camera is more relaible when married with the GPX file
	<mcn>	and another trick i've found for road names that are not displayed on signs is to look at businesses/schools/etc along that road, and then look up their address on web sites
	<almien>	it was for big things on a country road (military road in fact)
	<almien>	didn't work so well for me
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: Yes, for a local area its not a problem. But as soon as you finish that close in area and your start to look for more you soon find yourself visiting wonderful places you never knew existed
	<Etienne>	Blackadder_uk: I find JOSM's feature of importing images very useful
	<Blackadder_uk>	Like tonight, I had a short walk along a section of Canal I have never visited before. Lots of boadsm pubs and locks to look at
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	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk: heh, yes :-). done some of that already. there are some great roads for motorbike rides around here I never knew existed before :-)
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: I'll second that
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	<Blackadder_uk>	hey Nick_B
	<tim_w>	boadsm?
	* f_mohr	used that looking up on the web trick for unclear start/end of streets
	<bigbro>	lo nick_b
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: We need a way of autotstamping images with the Geo location, perhaps within JOSM
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	<Etienne>	Blackadder_uk: that would be very useful. I guess you have to write the lat/lon to the Exim headers somehow.
	<Blackadder_uk>	tim_w: sorry, just spotted that baddie. It meant to say "boats n"
	<mcn>	Etienne: exif, you mean?
	<f_mohr>	there are some tools to do that
	<tim_w>	:) ahh hehe.
	<Etienne>	mcn: Yes - exif
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	<mcn>	or could actually print it on the image, like cameras do with the time/date etc
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: Yes, I can do that now using the MS stamper but within JOSM would be neater
	<tim_w>	pretty simple java classes to do that
	<Blackadder_uk>	Then we need a way to call images with location data off flikr or whatever so that all users have access to the photos
	<Etienne>	Is it more useful to get to a map from a photgraph or to a photgraph from a map?
	<f_mohr>	would be great to add the photo direction too .. but i dont see way to do that
	<Blackadder_uk>	f_mohr: Agreed, not easy that one unless you get a compass bearing
	<Etienne>	f_mohr: Look at the direction of the shadows...
	<almien>	or just write it down
	<f_mohr>	should work with the compas in my gps .. but has to be done manually
	<jbglaw>	Actually, noting down the current direction (of the person, not the heading of the camera) could help a lot, too.
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: not always possible in Manchester for instance
	<jbglaw>	You may probably see if you photograph in driving direction or to the right/left...
	<Etienne>	f_mohr: I did that once when I couldn't remember whether the photo was of the road to the left or the one to the right
	<tim_w>	then note the direction the way the rain slants
	<mcn>	having a central osm photo server seems like a good idea to me, but I think it would be cost prohibitive because of the amount of space needed
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: I think photos on maps and maps from photos both have there merits for different reasons
	<almien>	just store hyperlinks
	<Etienne>	tim_w: lol
	<mcn>	almien: that is a good idea
	<jbglaw>	What kind of hardware is OSM running right now? Eg. CPU type, storage, RAM...
	<almien>	but don't flickr support geotags anyway? so just use them
	<Blackadder_uk>	jbglaw: There are some details on that on the wiki
	<jbglaw>	I'm not a friend of storing hyperlinks only... The data they point to tend to vanish...
	<jburgess>	http://www.zooomr.com is kind of flickr+geotags
	<mcn>	jburgess: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Feeds
	<FredB>	Hi all. Just would like to know which key/value you are using for a hiking way.
	<mcn>	oops
	<mcn>	jbglaw: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Feeds
	<mcn>	silly autocomplete
	<tim_w>	Hi FredB
	<Blackadder_uk>	FredB: I'm using highway=footway and then also if required I tag it "access=yes" if I feel whimsical
	<mcn>	FredB: if it's a footpath, then "highway=footway", "foot=yes"
	<Etienne>	jbglaw: thats why I use 80n:dsc05671.jpg - I can translate 80n: to http://www.bitbucket.com/80n today but next month it may be http://www.flickr.com/Etienne
	<jbglaw>	Etienne: *You* can, but custom namespaces are so, ..., custom
	<jbglaw>	mcn: Thanks.
	<jbglaw>	So that's "moderate" hardware, not clustered.
	<FredB>	ok thanks. and how to differentiate a footpath (in the town but only for pedestrians) and a hiking way (in the mountain for example) ?
	<Blackadder_uk>	We really should look more closely into the photo repositry and and geolocation tagging. I already have several thousand photos
	<almien>	Blackadder_uk: create a "geograph for boring pictures"?
	<Blackadder_uk>	I have plenty of "boring" pictures already. I'm a tunnel engineer ;-)
	<almien>	oh very good
	<jbglaw>	rotf
	<bigbro>	Blackadder_uk: I presume you can appreciate how hard it is for me to hold back a slew of puns and rude comments based on that job description? ;-P
	<almien>	and this is my glued-on concrete ceiling...
	<mcn>	FredB: i've done both the same so far, although if it isn't actually a uk public footpath, i've tried not to put foot=yes, but foot=permissive, for example
	<Blackadder_uk>	FredB: There is not much difference beween these two except for the difficulty and perhaps the surfacing. You can tag the two differently with extra information
	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk,FredB: ah, yes, and "surface=paved" or "surface=unpaved", too
	<Etienne>	FredB: I've been using the same for both. But an urban footpath is, in theory, more wheelchair accessible than a mountain route
	<mcn>	we have a disused railway track through town that is part cycleway and paved, and part footway and unpaved
	<Blackadder_uk>	bigbro: If you look "Boring Contractors" in most yellow pages it says "see Civil Engineers"
	<FredB>	Thanks I will use footpath and the surface information :)
	<bigbro>	Blackadder_uk: Yeah, well if you look me up in the yellow pages it says, "Uncivil engineer!" ;-P
	<Blackadder_uk>	mcn: Suggest you make a way for the common segments and a new way for the other common segments
	<Blackadder_uk>	bigbro: ha
	* bigbro	grins
	<mcn>	Blackadder_uk: yes, that's what i've done
	<Etienne>	I came across a BOAT recently. Still not sure how to tag that.
	<almien>	highway=byway?
	<mcn>	FredB: actually, just checked, on a general footpath in town i've got "foot=public" (not "yes"), "surface=paved", "highway=footway" and "name=X" where the footpath has a name (quite a lot do around here)
	<Etienne>	BOAT stands for Byway Open to All Traffic
	<almien>	isn't that just the new word for a byway?
	<MWelchUK>	I've added a proposal to Map_Features: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Talk:Map_Features#Proposal_for_strong_namespaces , what does everyone think?
	* mcn	has tagged a byway as "surface=paved", "access=public", but i couldn't think of what to use for highway
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: Funny that, I had BOAT last week too
	<Etienne>	almien: don't know - its an administrative classification so maybe it should be highway=BOAT.
	<Blackadder_uk>	ha
	<Etienne>	Blackadder_uk: Ah, but I bet your's wasn't a *closed* boat.
	<Blackadder_uk>	how to confuse our continetal cousins even further
	<mcn>	MWelchUK: looks good to me
	<Blackadder_uk>	It might have been. I only saw the bow
	<almien>	Etienne: you need a radio-control car to send the GPS down and back...
	<FredB>	yes but in the actual map features scheme 'yes' seems to have taken the place of 'public'
	* mcn	wonders if it is really a BOTAT, and is therefore a scruffy bit of fabric worn around the neck
	<almien>	study of them = boatany?
	<mcn>	almien: only if there is grass growing down the middle
	<jbglaw>	almien: ...and "sinking" if you fail to understand?
	* mcn	shuffles off and hides under a rock
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	<Etienne>	http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g51/80n80n/05/DSC05486.jpg
	* MWelchUK	shuffles off.
	<tim_w>	is the osm t-shirt competition still going?
	<Etienne>	I take this to mean that its a byway that is open to all traffic but is closed to.. all traffic
	<mcn>	yes, heh
	<Blackadder_uk>	Etienne: And all at sea.....
	<almien>	bcat
	<Etienne>	Folks, do you think we should have this kind of session on a regular basis?
	* jbglaw	nods
	<MWelchUK>	Etienne: yes!
	<tim_w>	yes Etienne
	<Etienne>	How frequently?
	<mcn>	sounds good
	<Blackadder_uk>	Need more beer mind
	<jbglaw>	Every two weeks?
	<bigbro>	I should also attempt to not get on the wrong train and end up arriving hours late.
	<Blackadder_uk>	Anyone know what "WR" on a milepost type marker means?
	<Etienne>	Blackadder_uk: do you have a photo?
	<Blackadder_uk>	Yes, not posted anywhere tho
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	<bigbro>	Blackadder_uk: Not sure why this springs to mind, and it may be complete crud - but is it something to do with them being royal signposts? Perhaps some latin for W-something Regin(um)?
	<Etienne>	Anything else other than just WR?
	<tim_w>	where was it?
	<tim_w>	West Riding? yorkshire?
	<almien>	equivalent of "E::R" but with william?
	<Blackadder_uk>	Its in Clapham, Yorkshire and its a triangular profile metal type marker by the side of the road painted black and whire with just WR on each of the two forward faces
	<tim_w>	usually they put the initials of the council on old signposts
	* almien	is off: see you all saturday
	<Etienne>	Is it an old marker or something modern?
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	<tim_w>	clapham was in the West Riding
	<tim_w>	so if the competition is till on: http://chippy2005.googlepages.com/osmtshirt for comments
	<Etienne>	tim_w: nice
	<tim_w>	could be renamed "my segment" :)
	<Blackadder_uk>	tim_w: I think you may be right there
	<Etienne>	segments are history - ways rule
	<mcn>	just thought of an idea to make roundabouts and some other segment joins in a way better: how about a "smooth=yes" type tag that things such as osmarender could use to draw a curve through the point, rather than a square joint?
	<mcn>	Etienne: i agree