Proposal:Imports Mailing List Migration

Migrating the Imports Mailing List to the Community Forum
Proposal status:	Approved (active)
Proposed by:	SherbetS
Applies to:	type
Definition:	This page is for voting and additional comments on the topic of moving the manadatory Import RFC from the mailing list to the community forum.
Draft started:	2023-06-22
Vote start:	2023-06-22
Vote end:	2023-07-06

Proposal

This proposal page aims to provide the community a chance to vote on the issue of migrating the mandatory RFC for Imports from the Mailing List to the OSM Community Forum (using the "import" tag).

This is also discussed on the Imports mailing list,[1] as well as the Community Forum [2]

Rationale

It is well known that mailing list membership is dwarfed by other channels of communication. the OSM discourse forum, while not being a mandatory part of the imports process, already has more posts on average on the subject of imports than the mailing list, as another user pointed out. [3] It serves no advantage to the community to have a much smaller user base and less peer review oversight on imports to the database. Moving to the community forum will certainly spawn more engagement in discussions about new imports, and won't lock users out by the obscure nature of the mailing list.

Additionally, the community forum has tools available to function in a similar manner as the mailing list, where users can see and respond to threads from their email client.

External discussions

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2023-June/007221.html

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/imports-community-category/97957

Comments

Please comment on the discussion page.

Voting

Voting closed

Voting on this proposal has been closed.

It was approved with 45 votes for, 5 votes against and 0 abstentions.

• I approve this proposal. --SherbetS (talk) 21:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Lostlost (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Mashin (talk) 22:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Wcedmisten (talk) 22:44, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --501ghost (talk) 23:16, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. I don't accept the argument that mailing lists are "difficult" to use. --Tekim (talk) 23:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tekim, while I understand your opinion about the ease of access of the mailing list, I don't see how it's relevant to this vote, which is on the topic of migrating the mailing list to the community forum, not a discussion about it's accessibility specifically. --SherbetS (talk) 05:03, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi SherbetS, it is relevant because it was one of your reasons for making this proposal. If you didn't think it was relevant, why did you bring it up?

I mentioned this because I personally believe that the mailing list is objectively an older and more difficult/less functional tool than the community forum. I assumed this was a common sentiment with the majority of the community. --SherbetS (talk) 03:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --Jmarchon (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. I'd prefer to also see all the messages from the (new?) Imports section of the Forum archived in the form of emails (as that's an easier format to preserve), but I'm in favor of having the primary location for discussion be the forum. JesseFW (talk) 01:53, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. Any forum technology, properly integrated (two-way) with a mailing list, would be fine, however, this denigration of mailing lists via claims of "archaic technology", "difficult to understand" and "obscure nature" needs calling out --Buckley (talk) 04:06, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello Buckley,

The first time I tried to use the mailing list what when I was notified on a different communication channel that there was a mailing list thread on a topic I was interested in. I naively assumed that I would be able to respond to the post if I just joined the list. I joined the list, but was not able to respond to the post due to it being posted before my joining. Therefore, I had the user who sent me the post forward me the email, which I then responded to, only to find out that I had started a new thread, since the subject of the email was re:fwd:subject instead of re:subject, or possibly for another reason that I don't understand. I imagine that an experience like this can be discouraging to say the least to new users of the mailing list, and I hope you can see my point of view on this issue. --SherbetS (talk) 05:03, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --NKA (talk) 07:03, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. as illustrated by Buckley. —-Dieterdreist (talk) 07:44, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. It's time to move into the present. --Riiga (talk) 08:34, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. People wanting to still use e-mails can do the same with the Discourse, while the opposite is not true. Also, it's almost impossible to use search in the mailing list, which means that basically all conversation is lost after some time (unless someone indexes it on a wiki page). Time to move on, and to reach more people. --Matheusgomesms (talk) 09:08, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Arrival-spring (talk) 09:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --PCarewEG (talk) 12:31, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. And, I object to every no vote getting an argument. If people did that to all yes votes telling them they were wrong, there would be a lot of complaints. --gdt (talk) 12:48, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

The whole point of voting is to gauge what the community thinks on the topic. Addressing the concerns of the opposing vote is critical in making sure all issues are addressed --SherbetS (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --Watmildon (talk) 16:00, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Tordanik 16:01, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Popball (talk) 16:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --CasGroenigen (talk) 17:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Adamfranco (talk) 18:51, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. I receive constant spam emails to an email address that I only used for OSM mailing lists. It would be great to stop forcing people to expose their email address on the internet, just because they want to propose or discuss an import --Kylenz 23:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Citrula (talk) 03:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --OddBunsen (talk) 06:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Rayleigh1 (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Ernsterwinwg (talk) 23:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. Primarily due to more graspable layout of the forums which reduces bloat from email messages, such as headers/footers and quotes from previous message. --Fghj753 (talk) 14:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Kjon (talk) 15:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Woazboat (talk) 17:58, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Carnildo (talk) 21:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. Mailing lists are pretty antiquated at this point, the community forum is much more accessible for newer users. --MatchaHatesGoogle (talk) 22:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Westnordost (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Zstadler (talk) 05:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --ForgottenHero (talk) 13:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Rskedgell (talk) 07:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. PlayzinhoAgro
• I approve this proposal. --Tjuro (talk) 06:24, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. — Koreller (talk) 07:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Mxdanger (talk) 08:08, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Fincent (talk) 08:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Craxgard (talk) 13:45, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. -- Since no one uses mailing lists anymore CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. Options are good. Good options are even better. :^) I appreciate the idea of using a tag rather than a category, because it allows local communities with their own categories to take greater responsibility for vetting import proposals that affect them. Historically, the U.S. community operated its own imports-us list, since there was such a volume of import proposals from this country. Unfortunately, the existence of two mailing lists plus talk-us and various state-level lists just confused people endlessly, especially when someone would crosspost, causing Mailman to scatter replies randomly across each list. I will be glad to see an end to that experiment. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 19:58, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. I understand that any change will leave behind people who prefer the old way, but think the community site will give a much more public, more browseable, more accessible experience that will better involve a broader swath of OSM users in discussions. I hope that the community site's ability to watch tags and categories (whichever this becomes) and receive emails to new posts in those areas will at least partially satisfy those that prefer an email exeprience. --Nicksantos (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. Consolidating communication channels for OSM is a positive step. --B1tw153 (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --clay_c (talk) 20:31, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --MoiraPrime (talk) 20:33, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I approve this proposal. --Nfgusedautoparts (talk) 20:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• I oppose this proposal. I'd be a lot happier with this proposal if we were going to automatically forward all import discussions to the mailing list. --Vorpalblade77-kaart (talk) 20:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

  Moved to Proposal talk:Imports Mailing List Migration#Forwarding discussions to the mailing listMoving the discussion about mailing list integration to the talk page, where we can figure this out during and after the vote. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 23:14, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• I approve this proposal. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 02:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Additional Votes

• I oppose this proposal. it's an april fool or is this an unintentional gaffe?

you put out a call for comments on import mailing

and the next thread says that people on the forum voted,

without a call for a vote on the mailing list.

of course ppl from the forum vote for the forum.

I have run an unanoncement vote with myself and got 100%

in favor of the mailing :) so what ? april fool ?

Unfortunately, experience with talk-fr and tagging has shown

the damage this kind of choice can do:

some people don't migrate, so the community becomes poorer

and more fragmented, and those on one media can't communicate

with those on the other media.

Instead of a proposal "against the list", we need to integrate

the 2 media into a single discussion place forum+email, which is what Discourse

will allow when it matures, we just need to give it time to overcome

its teething problems.

what's even more worrying is the fact that there's hardly a single person among those who have taken the time to review import requests over the last 12 months. you can tell them they have to do it on the forum from now on, but that's not how it works. if a volunteer doesn't want to use an interface that they find unsuitable, they won't do it. and the unreviewed import will be approved, without the quality improvement that the review provided.

Marc marc (talk) 06:52, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Apparently the imports list was notified of the beginning of this vote. See my full response. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 09:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

A good example of how not to do notofication - short uncompleted text "Voting here" hidden in a message with general subject "Migrating Imports RFC to Community Forum". Was this done on purpose? --unsigned comment by user Rafmar

• I approve this proposal. Funny how critics from Marc applies to most other proposals as well. --Zverik (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2023 (UTC)