Proposal talk:Defensive structures
General vs specific format
Since similar questions are raised in https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2021-July/061919.html thread, for public reference, I suggested the alternative of historic=outwork + outwork=* in Discord. I can appreciate the advantage of historic=defensive_structure or similar historic=fortification_part in allowing all sorts of structures by sub-tagging. But it may be possible to add more specific top-level historic=* values, to treat this as a same-level generic tag. ---- Kovposch (talk) 03:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have solved this by adding an extra tag for outworks. --501ghost (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Kovposch. I have expanded the list of suggested tags for defensive works. Based on this list and external sources I think the topic of fortification engineering is distinct and broad enough to be classified separately from historic=* and other existing keys. I also rewrote the proposal to integrate the defensive_works=* tag better with existing tags. --501ghost (talk) 01:14, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Ideas and possible additions
- main line
- city_gate to replace historic=city_gate ;
- water_gate ex. Doornik Pont des Trous ; Breda Spanjaardsgat ; Aire-sur-la-Lys Porte de Beaulieu ; Kortrijk Broeltorens. Its icon could be similar or identical to that of city gate.
- curtain_wall which should replace city_walls as city walls should be a relation not a tag for individual walls and can include bastions, defensive towers, city gates (...) ;
- bolwerk instead of roundel, I'm not sure if appart from the Dutch people make a difference for bastei, roundel and bolwerk, in Belgium and France they don't seem to, and the wikipedia article aren't really clear. In France they rather use "artillery tower" for large tower and "boulevard" or "bolwerk" (in the northern an eastern part of the country) for horseshoe-shaped work.
- outworks
- tenaille
- crownwork (quite the same as hornwork)
- counterguard
- avant-porte (Wikipedia) same as a city gate but on an outwork (ravelin, counterguard), this should use a smaller city gate icon.
Arflha (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Arflha and thank you for your suggestions. I will have a good look at them and see how I can include them in the proposal. I have learned in a discussion on the mailing list that I should be a bit more restrained when it comes to proposing new tagging schemes for existing tags, so I am unsure whether I can include all of your suggestions. --501ghost (talk) 12:31, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with some of the main line suggestions above. One of the greatest advantages of the proposal is that it enhances existing tagging without breaking anything. Replacing existing tags city_gate and curtain_wall would void that, damage existing tagging schemes and cause me to vote against the proposal. Especially the idea to invalidate the simple tag for city_walls and force the use of a relation gives me a shiver. I recommend you keep your proposal in its current, non-intrusive shape. --Nop (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Nop here that the non-intrusive nature of my proposal has become one of its strong points. I am a very strong proponent of increasing tagging consistency and reducing redundancy and duplications, but this proposal for a new key is IMO an unsuitable forum for that discussion. On a similar note, rendering suggestions are deliberately kept out of this proposal. Rendering proposals can be made on the Github repositories instead. --501ghost (talk) 15:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with some of the main line suggestions above. One of the greatest advantages of the proposal is that it enhances existing tagging without breaking anything. Replacing existing tags city_gate and curtain_wall would void that, damage existing tagging schemes and cause me to vote against the proposal. Especially the idea to invalidate the simple tag for city_walls and force the use of a relation gives me a shiver. I recommend you keep your proposal in its current, non-intrusive shape. --Nop (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Concrete example
It would be helpful if we could see an example of this scheme along other well established tags, like fortresses, towers, castle walls, city gates, etc. This would give a better idea on how to map and how this scheme would improve the overall mapping of these historic structures. --AntMadeira (talk) 15:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)