Proposal talk:Facade garden
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"Facade"
Not sure I would use facade in this case, I was expecting this to refer to green walls (i.e., on the facade). I would suggest frontage rather than facade. SK53 (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
- Me too. I'm interested in the difference from a front garden, when "frontage garden" and "front garden" may be confused with each other. Size seems like a dubious criteria. This also overlaps with garden:type=residential. ---- Kovposch (talk) 02:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Garden walls are already a thing: garden:type=green_wall. The thing I have in mind is neither a green wall nor a front garden. The thing I have in mind is really quite well defined in our culture: it's not "a small front garden", as that is your private property. It's not the same as the tiny bit of greenery around a public tree, as that is at least officially managed by the governement. It's not a green wall, as here the focus is on the wall itself, not the public space right in front on the building. If there's not really a similar concept in British English, that makes things harder. I would say "frontage garden" is risky, as mappers are more likely to think they understand the word - incorrectly, as a front garden.
- Joost schouppe (talk) 08:51, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yup, perfectly aware of the green wall as I have mapped a few. However, I am not alone in interpreting facade as pertaining to this. I agree with you both that frontage (which was the first thing which I could come up with) is also prone to confusion (even if it is more correct usage). I really think a couple of concrete photo illustrations might help (& some Dutch/Flemish written context too). I've tried to see if I could find some on Mapillary, but most places I look in towns houses front directly onto the sidewalk, or are set back with the front garden either delineated by a hedge or an obviously private parking space. In suburbs front gardens are clearly that. SK53 (talk) 21:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- There's a few pictures on the proposal page already.
- As for frontage vs facade, I found this comparison: As nouns the difference between frontage and facade is that frontage is the front part of a property that faces the street while facade is (lb) the face of a building, especially the front view or elevation. If that is correct, the correct term for what I have in mind is absolutely "facade", not "frontage". Joost schouppe (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yup, perfectly aware of the green wall as I have mapped a few. However, I am not alone in interpreting facade as pertaining to this. I agree with you both that frontage (which was the first thing which I could come up with) is also prone to confusion (even if it is more correct usage). I really think a couple of concrete photo illustrations might help (& some Dutch/Flemish written context too). I've tried to see if I could find some on Mapillary, but most places I look in towns houses front directly onto the sidewalk, or are set back with the front garden either delineated by a hedge or an obviously private parking space. In suburbs front gardens are clearly that. SK53 (talk) 21:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
I also confused the term facade garden yesterday with a vertical garden on the facade of a building. A day later, I see that such already exists under another term, and I also see, that facade gardens are tightly localised thing, that I will not have to ever concern myself with. I also see, that if there are roses in the fg, it might be tagged a scrubbery, if the recent proposal therefore would not have failed, even approvably so. My concern here is just the same as it was there: Please find a generic term, that comprises several of these overlapping features, e.g. also the ones around trees in urban areas that are free for locals to groom, and subkey the variant. Base-key must not be landuse or natural, to make it easy on renderers! --Hungerburg (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Rereading the proposal, this here suggests a value under a subkey of leisure, no ideas on that, though, how that does render eg. inside of a residential area in different renderers? Sorry for rant! So a "garden:type:baumscheibe would be for gardens around urban trees? --Hungerburg (talk) 21:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Renderers already have to be careful about what to do with leisure=garden, because of the "vertical wall" type gardens. If I understand correctly that "baumscheibe" is "a small area in the public domain, around a tree, where citizens are encouraged to plant some plants", then indeed, it is pretty close to a facade garden. Though not exactly: it is around a tree, not along a facade. The access to the soil is made when the tree is planted, not when someone asks for permission to make a facade garden. They are close enough that it might be good to add a section to this proposal to also add them. But not to say that they should have the exact same tag. A generic proposal for mapping "all sorts of greenery in the public domain" would of course be better, but that can be crafted to deprecate these gardens if whoeever crafts that would like. Joost schouppe (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- I do not know the English term, but there is a wikipedia article on https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumscheibe with a Dutch version too, https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomspiegel - Perhaps it is tree pit. The area is not public domain, but administered by the city gardening department, and a recent initiative by them is to set some of those up to be managed by people from the neighbourhood. As the leisure=garden tag is not convoluted with dozens of faculties, I do not see a need to structure both facade and tree pit under some common ancestor. Perhaps you may want to propose "facade_garden" and "tree_pit" as two new values for the garden key, don't the exist in your region too? --Hungerburg (talk) 19:54, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Renderers already have to be careful about what to do with leisure=garden, because of the "vertical wall" type gardens. If I understand correctly that "baumscheibe" is "a small area in the public domain, around a tree, where citizens are encouraged to plant some plants", then indeed, it is pretty close to a facade garden. Though not exactly: it is around a tree, not along a facade. The access to the soil is made when the tree is planted, not when someone asks for permission to make a facade garden. They are close enough that it might be good to add a section to this proposal to also add them. But not to say that they should have the exact same tag. A generic proposal for mapping "all sorts of greenery in the public domain" would of course be better, but that can be crafted to deprecate these gardens if whoeever crafts that would like. Joost schouppe (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Like everyone else I was confused and thought "facade" referred to plants growing in or on a wall as part of the building design (popular with greenwashing architects who try and divert attention from the environmental effects of concrete use). So, please don't use "facade" for this. More generally. do we really need a tag for this? People can map plants right now (and mostly these will be one or two individual plants). Adding tons of new definitions to the wiki that no-one will ever use just confuses people looking for things that actually matter. SomeoneElse (talk) 11:05, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- What matters to you isn't necessarily what matters to other people.
- I don't really get the confusion: the text tries to explain the difference with the existing "green wall", and there are images to further clarify. Are people simply not reading before opining? Am I trying to explain in too much detail? Is there any other word you could think of that might lessen the confusion? In Dutch, we say "tile garden" or "street facade garden" (as opposed to "front garden" for where you actually own the space). "Frontage garden" was suggested, but elsewhere I explain why I think that doesn't really work.
- I agree that it'd be great for there to be a general solution to mapping "greenery in the public domain". Saying "just map it as a plant" doesn't move in the direction of a solution IMHO. While I'm not going to tackle that matter myself, having a clear definition of a real subset of "greenery in the public domain" does help to integrate this data into another model if that day ever comes around.
- As for "no-one will ever use this": I'm working with a small NGO in Mechelen who wanted to collect this data; and another small NGO with whom I volunteered before on the topic of facade gardens was really enthused by the possibility to map them.
- If you care to think along, this might be an alternative. We have man_made=flowerbed, an abandoned, very short proposal. Perhaps that could be extended instead with some subtags. See the suggestion here to include "baumscheibe", the open area around trees that in some places are "beautified" by citizens - after official encouragment, or not. One could map that by adding operator:type to indicate that daily management of the area is done by civilians instead of the default (i.e. governement agents of some sort). That would still leave open the question if it is tolerated or encouraged, whether the plantable area existed already (baumscheibe) or was purpose made (facade garden). Perhaps not absolutely needed, but it's practical to simply be able to tell the difference in a tag between "perched against a wall" or "around a garden". : Joost schouppe (talk) 07:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
From the thread
- They have something similar in Berlin, around street trees basically, so it's not along the facade, but a similar size and initiative. Maybe a tag that includes "urban"? Or is it rather a flower bed than a garden? (a.k. distel)
- I don't think this is the same, but rather indeed a flower bed, operated by the governement. Maybe people might plant some stuff there themselves, but it was the governement initiative to create those spaces with the idea that they'd manage them themselves. And of course: not adjacent to the facade, so not applicable under this tag. Joost schouppe (talk) 11:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- In some areas there are many flower, shrubs and tree planting done by the people, without any help or even endorsement from the government. Guerrilla gardening is a thing. --Dieterdreist (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- I am seeing this type of guerrilla gardening in the Netherlands as well: a piece of unpaved area around a tree (but not directly adjacent to a house) that gets planted with flowers and garden gnomes by residents to cheer up the neighbourhood and discourage people from using these areas as dog toilets. If this very common type is not a façade garden and falls outside of the scope of this proposal (which is fine because you are using a garden sub-type), than you should clearly indicate this in the (proposed) documentation, because mappers will be looking for a tag for that. It's a bit of trend in some areas you see. --JeroenHoek (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Good point, I clarified in the original proposal. I think many comments point in the direction of the need for a more general solution. While I'm tempted to say "scratch your own back", I'll try and think of a different proposal to deal with a wider variety of planted spaces. Joost schouppe (talk) 11:50, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Neither approach is wrong, but if a more general proposal provides the same semantics with the only difference being fairly marginal (namely whether or not the garden is directly adjacent to a house), the more general solution can have the benefit of broader adoption. It depends on your rationale and what you wish to emphasize. If the focus lies on guerrilla gardening in the streets (i.e., residents creating little gardens out of public space; not necessarily without approval, but as a grass-roots phenomenon at the least), than it may make sense to choose the broader approach. One problem that might occur is that a separate garden type for guerrilla gardenettes might clash with façade garden, the latter of which may be both. Your current definition summary reads as a what you would expect for a garden type value for all of these urban public space gardens, not just those directly adjacent to a house. --JeroenHoek (talk) 12:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- Example of the type of guerrilla gardening you may want to consider — either to explicitly omit from the proposal, or to broaden the scope of the proposal to include it:
- Good point, I clarified in the original proposal. I think many comments point in the direction of the need for a more general solution. While I'm tempted to say "scratch your own back", I'll try and think of a different proposal to deal with a wider variety of planted spaces. Joost schouppe (talk) 11:50, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- I am seeing this type of guerrilla gardening in the Netherlands as well: a piece of unpaved area around a tree (but not directly adjacent to a house) that gets planted with flowers and garden gnomes by residents to cheer up the neighbourhood and discourage people from using these areas as dog toilets. If this very common type is not a façade garden and falls outside of the scope of this proposal (which is fine because you are using a garden sub-type), than you should clearly indicate this in the (proposed) documentation, because mappers will be looking for a tag for that. It's a bit of trend in some areas you see. --JeroenHoek (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- In some areas there are many flower, shrubs and tree planting done by the people, without any help or even endorsement from the government. Guerrilla gardening is a thing. --Dieterdreist (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think this is the same, but rather indeed a flower bed, operated by the governement. Maybe people might plant some stuff there themselves, but it was the governement initiative to create those spaces with the idea that they'd manage them themselves. And of course: not adjacent to the facade, so not applicable under this tag. Joost schouppe (talk) 11:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Again, either choice is fine, but without mentioning this mappers will invariably misuse your suggested tag-value because both garden types share many characteristics. --JeroenHoek (talk) 15:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
- maybe "facade garden" is a good term to describe these (or "vertical garden"), but I do not think that leisure=garden is a good fit. These are typically plants growing on a facade or wall, and are not "accessible", you can not step on the garden, indeed, it isn't even a garden from some perspective. Maybe you could describe it more in terms of facade than in terms of garden. (Martin Koppenhoefer)
- Note that for vertical gardens we have garden:type=green_wall; as such the tag leisure=garden already contains things you can't "walk into". Joost schouppe (talk) 11:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Good that it's a wiki. You are right. --Dieterdreist (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Note that for vertical gardens we have garden:type=green_wall; as such the tag leisure=garden already contains things you can't "walk into". Joost schouppe (talk) 11:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
why only on nodes?
A way along the parts of a building where plants are growing on the facade (i.e. a way on the building outline) would give a better impression of the situation. --Dieterdreist (talk) 21:13, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
As a property?
Would you be interested in also providing an alternative way of tagging these as a property (of a building, typically)? --Dieterdreist (talk) 21:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)