Proposal talk:Healthcare:speciality=equine-assisted

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I have canceled this proposal in favor of Proposal:Social facility=equine assisted centre. Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion.

What does "specializing" mean?

I am sure what "equestrian facilities specializing in equine-assisted therapies for patients" means (maybe because of my limited knowledge of English). Does it mean that it has to be a facility that only or at least mainly deals with EAT, or can the tag also be added to quite normal riding centres that offer some EAT among other things (e.g. riding lessons for healhy kids, trail rides, etc.)? (Note that Key:healthcare:speciality says: "If a medical practitioner or a medical facility covers several specializations, they could be separated by a semicolon (';') e.g. healthcare:speciality=general;geriatrics;gynaecology;paediatrics".) --Hufkratzer (talk) 16:13, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Response

Thanks Hufkratzer for your questions and all of your help in the past. This tag is intended for facilities that only/mainly provide EAT. They are not open to the general public without an appointment or consultation. I would leave it to the community how they would handle a mapping a facility that focuses on leisure or competitive riding that may offer an EAT session here or there. Perhaps mappers could add that to the notes for leisure or competitive centers.

I've updated the Description and Proposal section to make it more clear.

Could you give me more context on the separation by a semicolon suggestion? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Codesurfer (talk • contribs) 21:43, 15 January 2024‎

See Semi-colon value separator for a general explanation; with healthcare:speciality=* it allows that doctors and healthcare facilities can have more than one speciality. If, for example, in taginfo you search for "paediatrics" you do not only find "healthcare:speciality=paediatrics" but all values that contain "paediatrics".
If a facility is open to the general public or not can be specified with so-called access=* tags, e.g access=customers.
I am not sure if it is a good idea to tag facilities that only/mainly provide EAT as riding centres, even if they do hippotherapy; maybe in this case healthcare=alternative should be used instead, because this is the focus then. The riding centres that are not focussed on EAT, but offer it among other equestrian activities, could then be tagged leisure=horse_riding + healthcare:speciality=equine-assisted. There may possibly be more of this type than of the specialized type. But I am just guessing here and am curious myself what the outcome of the discussion will be.
--Hufkratzer (talk) 11:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Why should it be healthcare=alternative ? Having dogs or cats in counseling or exercising doesn't change the medical system. Animals are merely a companion.
—— Kovposch (talk) 03:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
healthcare:speciality=physiatry seems to be a similar case and is mentioned in healthcare=alternative. But maybe that is wrong, I don't know. These categorizations are always a bit subjective. If you know a better main tag for EAT, please let us know. I was just sceptical that it is a good idea to use leisure tags for healthcare oriented facilities; but you can counter that most people that go to a leisure=fitness_centre probably do that to improve their health. --Hufkratzer (talk) 09:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
That's even more confusing. Maybe physiatrist are willing to consider alternative medicine, but that doesn't make the entire field alternative medicine. Psychiatry and "physical medicine and rehabilitation" are mentioned in healthcare=rehabilitation more strongly.
leisure=* + healthcare=* might be used as they do both. I'm not opposed to that. Some people may not find these as healthcare=* either.
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:42, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Tag:healthcare=rehabilitation says: "it is like to be an inpatient or residential facility where patients stay overnight". I assume that this is not the case for most EAT facilities, but I don't know. @Codesurfer: How is that? --Hufkratzer (talk) 14:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
@Hufkratzer: Correct, staying overnight is not the case for most EAT facilities. There are some addiction recovery facilities that have EAT as a secondary activity. But most places with EAT are private facilities with clients attending a one hour session a day. ~ Codesurfer (talk) 21:22, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation and yes, considering placing a node within the area healthcare=alternative + healthcare:speciality=equine-assisted could be an option as well. I'm still waiting on my invite to the tag list group but may ask for others to post the official RFC later this week. --Codesurfer (talk) 01:31, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Another suggestion for Hufkratzer, would it be easier to have a proposed tag for Therapeutic Riding Centers with main activities related to EAT to simplify the tagging?

~ Codesurfer (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Animals

What's the reason of not using "animal-assisted therapy"? There doesn't need to be *=*-assisted for each animal, eg therapy dog services.
—— Kovposch (talk) 03:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)


Good question, I included considerations of this tag under the Appropriateness of Similar Tags section. If one were seeking EAT, the most logical starting point for searching locations would be to search on the word equine or horse and not searching on the word animal. Having this tag would serve the community in searching for equine-assisted therapy only. Similar to an amenity or restaurant choice (e.g., American, Mexican, Italian, French, Chinese, etc.).

--Codesurfer (talk) 00:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not related to how this should be structured. Keywords can be defined for each level.
cuisine=* is a mess. And amenity=restaurant is more specific than eg healthcare=alternative on the service you receive.
As physiatry is mentioned above, if there needs to be healthcare=* , this might be able to follow healthcare=physiotherapist and healthcare=rehabilitation to be healthcare=animal_assisted , then eg animal=horse can be used, without needing to spend a healthcare:speciality=* for them. Furthermore, healthcare:speciality=* may be reserved for showing whether they are specialized for disabilities or mental health.
Not every healthcare=* must have a healthcare:speciality=* . Some healthcare=* has crappy advice. Tag:healthcare=laboratory mentions a healthcare:speciality=blood_check that's not even "approved" as claimed, and this causes conflict on what they are testing, for healthcare:speciality=infectious_diseases or something . This can be seen in the still not well-documented Key:healthcare:speciality#Specialities_for_healthcare=laboratory , where the unfortunately vague healthcare:speciality=biology and healthcare:speciality=biochemistry were actually "approved" in the original proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?oldid=589962#Specialities_of_medical_practitioners_or_other_medical_facilities for the use in clinical (micro)biology and chemical pathology. *=clinical_pathology would be the generic category for them.
In contrast, healthcare=sample_collection simply uses sample_collection=* . That's a better model to start with.
Or there is healthcare=counselling using healthcare:counselling=* . Then here it becomes healthcare:animal_assisted=horse .
—— Kovposch (talk) 07:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Could healthcare:animal_assisted=horse be added to leisure=horse_riding without a healthcare=* tag? This would then be a similar scheme like adding animal_boarding=horse (Tag:amenity=animal_boarding#Animal boarding as secondary activity). --Hufkratzer (talk) 11:49, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
Kovposch Thanks for the additional context. Could Hufkratzer's suggestion of healthcare:animal_assisted=horse work for riding centers offering EAT as a primary activity? Would this tag also support those facilities where equine-assisted therapy is a secondary activity (e.g., a summer camp offering)?

~ Codesurfer (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I meant it this way:
* healthcare=* + healthcare:animal_assisted=horse = healthcare (EAT) is primary activity
* leisure=horse_riding + healthcare:animal_assisted=horse = horse riding (for fun) is primary activiry and EAT is secondary/additional activity
Then searching for "healthcare:animal_assisted=horse" you can find all posibilities where you can get EAT.
--Hufkratzer (talk) 01:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
  1. healthcare:animal_assisted=* will be useful for other healthcare=* that offers or refers therapy animal service too. Still, the healthcare=* feature of EAT needs to be decided. But then should the question of sport=equestrian be considered for EAT together?
  2. I'm mainly thinking about whether it is good to have a healthcare:*=* attribute on the leisure=* without the corresponding healthcare=* dual feature. Also, do you have any change in your perspective in Talk:Tag:leisure=horse_riding#When_to_use_leisure=horse_riding_instead_of_leisure=sports_centre? ?

—— Kovposch (talk) 07:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
Do you want to recommend to use a healthcare=* tag together with a leisure=* tag on the same object? Wouldn't that be a violation of the one feature, one OSM element rule? It might produce problems for editors, renderers and QA tools might complain. A sport=* tag isn't a feature tag, so theoretically it could be used together with a healthcare=* tag. But I can hardly imagine a case where that would make sense because I associate "sport" with competitions or at least training for competitions; I only add sport=equestrian if I think that this takes place there. There surely is sport for disabled, but is that EAT? Can't sport=equestrian and leisure=sports_centre not simply not be mentioned in an EAT proposal?
BTW, what about amenity=social_facility + social_facility:for=*? Could that also be used for EAT facilities?
--Hufkratzer (talk) 19:21, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

—— Kovposch (talk) 07:09, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  • (1) Maybe. Then one can only use a separate object with healthcare=* + some EAT tag inside or near the riding centre? But then one can't specify which one is the main and which one is the secondary activity. Right?
  • (2) I would not count carriage driving as horse riding. I now found [1] which says it also isn't an equestrian activity (this seems to be a contradiction to [W] equestrian sport, but if EAT isn't a sport, it can't be an equestrian sport anyway). A leisure tag for carriage driving is not documented; we have one node with leisure=carriage_ride and one with leisure=horse_carriage. I also can imagine other types of EAT like walking around with horses or grooming them, but I don't know. @Codesurfer: How is that?
  • (3) Would amenity=community_centre + community_centre:for=* be better?
--Hufkratzer (talk) 14:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
  • (1) Therapeutic Driving (a type of carriage driving) is not physically riding a horse, but is used in EAT, especially for paraplegics and is growing in the veteran-serving EAT community.
  • (2) General horsemanship including walking with horses (not on them) and grooming them is also used in EAT.
  • (3) I think that amenity=social_facility + social_facility:for=equine-assisted would be better as social care is provided by the facilities rather than the facilities serving as a gathering place. I'm not sure how that would work for facilities offering EAT as a secondary activity.
~ Codesurfer (talk) 22:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)


Agree, that using healthcare:animal_assisted=* will be useful to other therapy communities/users in future mapping.
Regarding the sport=equestrian question, there are EAT citations that divide it into 3 categories: (1) sport/recreational, (2) medical (also known as hippotherapy), and (3) educational. (Grandin et al., 2010; Stoner, 2002).
~ Codesurfer (talk) 13:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Now that you reminded me of that term, there are a few https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=hippotherapy#values you missed. They will be affected.
3. Equine-assisted_therapy#Terminology Then "learning" is not a therapy and strictly healthcare:*=* ?
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
@Kovposch: Thanks for noting that. Yes, they would be affected and I'll incorporate those into the similar tags section and will do another search on some other EAT user-defined terms.
Clients learning to socialize, vocalize, and interact with others is a type of therapy, but the amenity=social_facility may be more applicable to locations with EAT as a primary service rather than the healthcare:*=* category.

Use of the Tag:amenity=social_facility

Based on the proposal draft comment discussions here, I'm going to work on submitting a new proposal for animal-assisted/equine-assisted therapy centers under amenity=social_facility. In addition, an amenity tag for places offering animal-assisted and EAT as a secondary service is needed as well.

Some considerations from the Amenity=social facility Wiki:

  • Social facilities come in many different types and can be the location of where services are provided or where they are administered.
  • There are no restrictions as to who provides the services.
  • It is preferred when the it addresses an audience with specific problems, and/or is staffed with professional helpers.

Once I complete that draft, I'll cancel this draft proposal and will crosslink to this discussion page for context.

@Kovposch: and @Hufkratzer: This is my first proposal and I'm still learning the OSM way. Let me know if this is a good course of action.

Thanks ~ Codesurfer (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
At least I don't know a better one. For people who don't know what we were talking about, here are a lot of videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=animal+assisted+therapy, https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=equine+assisted+therapy --Hufkratzer (talk) 21:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Do you know more about the situation of amenity=stables ? If an EAT facility includes many of riding, driving, walking, and caring, this seems generic enough.
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
The name of the tag amenity=stables is more generic in some way than the one of leisure=horse_riding, but their descriptions in the wiki are quite the same and they are often used together, especially in the German-speaking regions (taginfo map), probably because the tag is supported by OSMC Reitkarte (wanderreitkarte.de). Normal (non-EAT) equestrian centres also include [W] grooming and [W] training (we also have a tag amenity=animal_training) from the ground, and sometimes some people there also drive their horses; everything is interwoven; but the focus is on riding, I would say. Not sure if this could be said for EAT. Also dogs are not kept in stables. --Hufkratzer (talk) 12:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
An alternative to making a new proposal right now could be to start a discussion in the community forum first; there seems to be more traffic there than in the wiki and on the mailing list. --Hufkratzer (talk) 12:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't find either amenity=social_facility or amenity=community_centre fit, as they don't describe the activity. It is akin to using them for art therapy, when there is eg amenity=arts_centre . That's why I wanted to find some suitable leisure=* for them.
Btw I noticed Key:health_specialty:*#Subsubspecialties_2 has health_specialty:art_therapy=* and health_specialty:music_therapy=* from Proposal:Healthcare 2.0 . While it's a mess otherwise, health_specialty=* has the proper medical spelling, and is more flexible. Unfortunately, that doesn't help if the topic is not healthcare=* .
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:15, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm not convinced for healthcare at this point. Leisure is for spare time activities, and these are scheduled appointments at a closed facility. I'm wondering if amenity=social_facility + social_facility=Animal_Assisted_Center would work for the location? And then additional tags for activities offered and species present. This would also work for centers catering to visually-impaired clients learning to work with guide dogs. I've found a few this evening.
~ Codesurfer (talk) 01:18, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
leisure=* is for everything related to playing activities, including leisure=stadium for competitive sports. Other private facilities can still be scheduled and "closed". That belongs to reservation=* and access=* .
Guide dog training and learning is completely different. They should be separated.
—— Kovposch (talk) 04:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, I took the "spare time" too literally in the definition. So, Hufkratzer's thoughts on leisure=horse_riding + amenity:animal_assisted=horse or amenity:equine_assisted could still be an option.
~ Codesurfer (talk) 12:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

- vs _

In OSM we usually use _ to connect words. I suggest equine_assisted instead of equine-assisted Nielkrokodil (talk) 18:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I'll make that change for the next round.
~ Codesurfer (talk) 00:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

which healthcare tag?

According to the wiki, every healthcare:speciality=* needs a healthcare=* Do you have a particular healthcare tag in mind? Nielkrokodil (talk) 18:55, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I've moved away from healthcare:speciality=* because I think that this is more suited to amenity=social_facility with the services provided which include physio, psychological, educational and social-based work.
~ Codesurfer (talk) 00:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
In [W] Animal-assisted therapy I have read that
* Animal-assisted therapy (AAT) is an alternative or complementary type of therapy
In [W] Therapy dog I have read that these dogs can work in
* hospitals, retirement homes, nursing homes, schools, libraries, hospices, or disaster areas (([W] in general))
* hospitals, nursing homes or rehabilitation facilities ([W] Therapeutic visitation dogs)
* rehabilitation facilities ([W] Animal-assisted therapy dogs)
* nursing homes ([W] Facility therapy dogs)
* funeral homes, hospitals, nursing homes, schools, and hospices ([W] Grief therapy dogs)
I wonder if any specialized dog-assisted therapy facilities even exist and if perhaps instead of a tag for a specialized animal-assisted therapy facility we just need a tag for animal-assisted therapy that can be combined with very different types of facilities, e.g. with amenity=social_facility, healthcare=alternative, healthcare=rehabilitation, healthcare=hospital, healthcare=hospice, amenity=school, amenity=library, amenity=nursing_home, leisure=horse_riding. I don't know if this is possible/allowed/makes sense. It seems that healthcare:speciality=* can't be used that way. But perhaps someone has an idea how this could be done. --Hufkratzer (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
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