Proposal talk:Ladders

Misunderstanding

All your example photos show vertical ladders. Are they drawn as lines as highway=path somehow? They would be added as ladder=yes points, similar to highway=elevator and location:transition=yes . I would support making them an explicit feature, but isn't highway=via_ferrata applicable? It is allowed on points.
For inclined ladders drawn as lines, again isn't that covered by highway=via_ferrata already.
—— Kovposch (talk) 10:49, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Any ladder that is not completely vertical is better drawn as way. ladder=yes would not be used on nodes or ways with highway=ladder. The tagging is indeed similar to highway=elevator, which also can be inclined. I agree in some cases highway=via_ferrata is applicable. In these cases I would suggest to either use the property ladder=yes on the via ferrata parts with ladders or maybe have highway=ladder parts on a via ferrata. In general, via ferrata is a specific feature in a specific setting (mountain hiking), and not applicable in other context while ladders can occur in many places. --Dieterdreist (talk) 10:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I realized why I asked: Won't that cause inconsistency where some ladders are highway=ladder , and others highway=via_ferrata ? Should highway=ladder + sport=via_ferrata / via_ferrata=* (eg) / assisted_trail=* (when applicable) be used instead of the latter? Or it is enough for them to be included in a route=via_ferrata ?
—— Kovposch (talk) 13:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh yes, definitely there would be two methods then, an explicit one (where the geometry in OSM represents the ladder), and an implicit one, ladder=yes as an attribute, which says there is a ladder on this way. I believe in some cases it would be beneficial to be able to tag a ladder explicitly, and I also believe that via ferrata is the exception, ladder=yes does not work on other highways, so we are quite limited to map ladders in general (e.g. highway=path with ladder=yes does not seem a combination that makes sense). --Dieterdreist (talk) 13:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Ladder versus steps

Would be helpful to clarify the difference between highway=steps and highway=ladder: I assume the defining difference is that a highway=ladder has gaps? --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 13:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I was going to say the same thing. When should highway=steps be used and when highway=ladder? (Or rather: why not just use highway=steps?)
I don't think gaps between rungs/steps is a defining difference though as there are plenty of stairs with gaps in between steps. I think the main difference is that ladders require the use of hands to ascend/descend safely while steps do not. Woazboat (talk) 13:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Surely ladders are a sub-type of steps? highway=steps; steps=ladder perhaps?--PeterPan99 (talk) 19:36, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia suggests that ladders are a subtype of steps. In other languages this is not the case, and might be confusing. From a typological point of view I believe ladders are significantly different to merit their own class aside to steps. —Dieterdreist (talk) 21:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

It is still unclear to my what the key typological differences are. Can you add these typological differences to your proposal? --JeroenvanderGun (talk) 14:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I have added the criteria to distinguish a ladder from steps, basically I agree with Woazboat that the requirement to use hands is essential. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:35, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

On Nodes, better key might be barrier

There is ladder=yes in the assisted_trail set. Used that occasionally. Never ever felt the need to map a ladder as a way. A node always worked out for me. Now, this is all esoteric stuff and not available for mappers not into mountain paths. Still I consider the idea worth spreading. I'd put those ladders rather into the barrier=ladder key. That says much more to consumers. Renderers can draw a nice icon for something they are used to draw nice icons. Routers can tell users, not so easy with a wheelchair, and be ready to carry your dog puppy. Doesn't that make sense? --Hungerburg (talk) 21:05, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I can understand the idea, but I am hesistant to classify ladders as "barriers", because they are rather the opposite: helping to pass a barrier / obstacle. They do constitute a barrier to some other people, but so do steps, fords, motorways and lots of other features. --Dieterdreist (talk) 11:22, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Following this rationale, barrier=stile would also be highway=stile? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dstile#Ladder_stile is a bit involved, might be highway=steps just as well as highway=ladder. What makes a ladder? Use of hands? But not on the railing? Maybe I just do not fancy creating new keys in the highway key that in most cases will get mapped on nodes, not ways. --Hungerburg (talk) 21:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

stile=ladder can be barrier=stile + highway=ladder . It's the same as existing ladder=yes . The issue would be indicating it's both-sided ( I prefer sides=* over two_sided=yes which is for lines) , and inapplicability of incline=* .
stile=squeezer is closer to barrier=entrance . The gap could be indicated with eg narrow=* otherwise . Compare barrier=cycle_barrier .
stile=stepover is basically saying it's not a full height barrier=entrance , or even not drop-down at all. But still passable by other methods. Notice the inconsistency of File:Metal_stile_taking_the_Nore_Valley_Way_from_the_Sion_Road_on_to_farmland.jpg in both Tag:stile=stepover and Tag:barrier=stile#Ladder_stile . It can't be assumed to be stairs?
stile=rambler_gate is totally a barrier=gate ?
—— Kovposch (talk) 06:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Layers

The proposal states "If the ladder is a node on a way, the way should be split and the upper way should get a higher layer=* than the part reaching from below." I disagree, as layer=* is used to differentiate between overlapping objects, not to specify elevation. I understand it is desired to state which is top and which is bottom, but I don't know that any tag applies to this situation. Perhaps level=*? --pkoby (talk) 15:55, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

When the ladder is mapped as a node, as the requirement is to split the way, there are overlapping objects at this point. --Dieterdreist (talk) 09:36, 23 October 2023 (UTC)