Proposal talk:Place of mourning

I appreciate the new proposal.

For the definition, you might remove the unintentional ambiguity that somebody "has died before their funeral" by changing the word order to:

a room or building where families and friends can come, before the funeral, and view the body of the person who has died.

For the proposal process, you should clarify if it is about the main tag amenity=place_of_mourning, and place_of_mourning=yes is just for illustration purposes, or if the latter is part of the proposal. Typically, simple tags get better acceptance than complicated schemes; however I see place_of_mourning=yes as a plausible addition so I'd like to see it as part of the proposal. --Polarbear w (talk) 00:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Right, simple votes get better acceptance but as we saw in the previous vote, some people vote no because they didn't see the need for the new main tag. The secondary tag would clarify that. What about creating two related proposals, one for each? Or two vote sections here? Vote about amenity=place_of_mourning and Vote about place_of_mourning=yes with a reminder in each section that you can vote about the other section as well? I would slightly prefer the second version. --Nospam2005 (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd rather keep one vote, just to keep it simple. And the subtag is such an obvious extension that I wouldn't want to take it out. If you look at the distinctions section, it becomes evident that there are a lot of possible combinations of different features. Without the option of a subtag, there will be lots of situations that can't be tagged adequately. --Vollis (talk) 23:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Please separate out the “Proposal” section from the “Rationale” section

It is important to clearly define the new tags being proposed. If your proposal is approved, we will need to make a new page at Tag:amenity=place_of_mourning and another at Key:place_of_mourning, and each of these tags needs a clear definition.

Currently you have the sentence "rooms where families and friends can come and view the deceased person in the days between the moment they died and their funeral" but aren't these features also used for funerals too?

Please make a section with the heading "Proposal" where you clearly define each of the 2 new tags. Then explain your rationale in the next section (see Proposal process). --Jeisenbe (talk) 19:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Needs to clearly define how this is different from amenity=funeral_hall and shop=funeral_directors and amenity=mortuary

See comments on the last proposal:

"It is redundant. I really don't understand why we need another tag for a room or building where families and friends can come and view someone who has died before their funeral. The tag shop=funeral_directors fits perfectly the definition of this new tag proposal (please read it) I quote the definition for funeral_directors: "An event (a place) to honor the deceased for mourners are held here in conjunction with religious services which are held elsewhere". And the tag amenity=funeral_hall can be used instead, in the case that religious ceremonies (any creed) are allowed in the building. Funeral Halls in many countries (as mine [México]) help mourners with all the administrative documentation as Funeral Directors do. If we want to have a tag for every possible difference in all countries we will have a myriad of tags and a complete confusion on which tag to use."

"I note that the English Wikipedia page Funeral_home directs to Funérarium in French, which is the term described in the lede. Similarly, I am also having trouble understanding where the distinction is between the two."

"my Oxford defines "chapel of rest" as "an undertaker's mortuary, where bodies are kept before a funeral" and does not reflect on the visitation aspect at all"

You need to explain this on the new proposal page. Note that on Tag:shop=funeral_directors it says "an event (sometimes with the deceased's body present) to honor the deceased for mourners are held here in conjunction with religious services which are held elsewhere." Also Tag:amenity=mortuary says "A morgue or funeral home" which might include a place for a viewing. --Jeisenbe (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Subtagging scheme

Are there other examples where X=yes is used as an alternative to amenity=X in this way? I would like to understand whether what you are proposing is a standard convention or not. --ZeLonewolf (talk) 23:40, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

You can e.g. refer to atm=yes/amenity=atm or toilets=yes/amenity=toilets. Of course, just like there, if you know exactly where the viewing room is, no problem to tag it apart, but more often than not, you may know e.g. that a crematorium has viewing rooms without knowing where exactly in the building they are. And that's when you need the subtag. --Vollis (talk) 10:28, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

The mapper could still set a node with amenity=* where the room is expected approximately, within the crematorium building outline, and refine on the next visit. --Polarbear w (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

They could - and I personally would, if I had no other option available - but a subtag seems more adequate than such a wild guess, because then it is at least clear that the exact location is unknown. --Vollis (talk) 22:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)