Proposal talk:Public transport access space

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What is Transmodel?

For those not familiar with it (e.g. me), a quick introduction to what Transmodel is and why it is relevant could be useful. --Jarek Piórkowski (talk) 23:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The explanation has a mistake. BOARDING POSITION is on the QUAY , so it means a railway=platform_edge , highway=bus_stop , or there's no equivalence, not a public_transport=stop_positon on the highway=* road, or railway=* track.
It's not detailed in the existing most up-to-date public resources https://transmodel-cen.eu/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/TUTORIAL-Part1-3-v0.2-1.pdf
—— Kovposch (talk) 08:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

For boarding position, my understanding of the standard is that it is a specific position of the quay, for example, a 8-coach train or a 12-coach train may use different positions on the same platform. They correspond to the sign on the ground (hence can be mapped as a public_transport=stop_position showing to the driver where a 8-coach train or a 12-coach train should stop. What's wrong with my reasoning? Miklcct (talk) 13:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

BOARDING POSITION is considered to be on the quay , not adjacent, or associated with. "A location within a QUAY from which passengers may directly board, or onto which passengers may directly alight from a VEHICLE", and see the linked figures.
In fact, public_transport=stop_position is already specified as VEHICLE STOPPING PLACE "A place on the vehicle track where vehicles stop in order for passengers to board or alight from a vehicle." on INFRASTRUCTURE LINK inside STOP PLACE (I'm only reading publicly available info, not the entire latest paid standard)
The public_transport=stop_position is on the railway=* track or highway=* roadway, not railway=platform or highway=platform . Therefore the corresponding feature is railway=platform_edge or highway=bus_stop . There are also other proposals FR:Tag:railway=platform_marker and FR:Tag:railway=platform_section to detail each position.
—— Kovposch (talk) 18:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Feedback / questions

Hi Michael, I shared some of these questions on talk-transit mailing list - I'm reposting them here so that you can answer or others can comment:

  1. Can you create some sample objects that use this tag? Could you add the object (nodes? ways?) to a station of your choosing (St Pancras mentioned in the page, or elsewhere) so that we can see it in action?
  2. What are some example objects where you would not use this tag? For example, where do you draw the line distinguishing between a public_transport=access_space and a large platform where people can linger in the central space before going to their train track?
  3. Relatedly, is a subway station mezzanine (an in-between level between ground level and platform level) a public_transport=access_space? Perhaps if there are two platforms, one per direction? That would seem to fit the definition "area that is accessible by passengers, but without a direct access to vehicles."
  4. Or, going by "where passengers wait for their vehicles, before proceeding to the quay to board." - so would this only be used in cases where there are several possible platforms to use, when the platform that will be used is not known ahead of time? In other words, this tag would not be used if there is only one platform per direction, like at a one-line, two-platform subway station? If so, might be worth it to specify this explicitly.
  5. It might be worth commenting whether this should apply to spaces that are only accessible to passengers/consumers. In the St Pancras example you mention that the access spaces would be behind the fare gates, but elsewhere you mention booking hall (which I understand is before fare gates) - are these relevant at all? I'm also thinking of cases like Germany where there are no fare gates in stations so anyone can walk through the entire station.
  6. I feel that the proposal would benefit from more explicit information on how data consumers could use it. There is the mention "such that routing software can tell people to wait for a train there" - has this been requested by any routers using OSM data? Or, if consumers of Transmodel data use it, adding examples of how they use it (and thus how OSM data consumers might use it) would be greatly beneficial.

Thanks! --Jarek Piórkowski (talk) 23:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

3. Yes, it's too broad and misleading. It includes all other areas in a station. There should be separate features for each of them, not using this vague and abstract concept directly from another standard. http://www.normes-donnees-tc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Transmodel_P2_v10.pdf#page=55
—— Kovposch (talk) 08:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
  1. An area I'd like to use this tag is relation 18125642, which represents the area behind the fare gates of London Bridge before heading up to the platforms using escalators.
  2. If it is clearly part of a platform, I would not use this tag. If it is an island platform where trains can go from either track, I won't use this tag as well.
  3. It fits this definition. Especially at a terminal platform where trains alternate tracks and platforms, making it impossible from the timetable to see which platform it goes from.
  4. There is no need to use this tag if passengers are expected to go direct to the platform without a need to check which platform a train can depart from.
  5. toll=* should be used for this purpose. The existence of a fare gate is not a key factor. The main point is that the area should be where passengers identify which platform to go for the train.
  6. I'm currently working with GTFS data at this moment and haven't checked how OpenTripPlanner behaves when a NeTEx timetable can't specify the exact quay a train will depart from. Maybe someone from Entur can help answering this. Miklcct (talk) 13:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Counterintutive and duplicate

  1. "Access" means ingress/egress, eg railway=platform / railway=platform_edge . There's already the mistake of highway=emergency_access_point / emergency=access_point wrongly translated, not about "access". You even put it as "without a direct access to vehicles" , then it shouldn't use "access". You shouldn't directly copy a standard's variable naming, especially when it's bad.
  2. There is already other more general amenity=waiting_area / amenity=waiting_room proposed Proposal:Waiting area , Proposal:Waiting room


—— Kovposch (talk) 08:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

+1 for each point. A amenity=waiting_area + maybe destination=* could be more consumer friendly and more intuitive. --Nospam2005 (talk) 13:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

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