Proposal talk:Service:bicycle
make attributes that you can mix
Currently you can't "mix" the attributes. You propose:
- shop:bicycle:repair yes/no bicycles are repaired (for a fee)
- shop:bicycle:diy yes/no there are freely available tools for do-it-yourself bike repair / building (e.g. a bike co-operative)
But if I wanted to tag a diy-bike shop where I have to pay a fee for repairing the bike myself (i.e. I pay for the space and the tools to use), I would have to invent a new tag. Why not make them mixable? If you wouldn't define diy as "free" but as "do-it-yourself" without any additions, and you left it open for repair if it was requiring a fee (make fee default), you could use another tag like shop:bicycle:diy:fee=yes/no (or shop:bicycle:diy=fee/no_fee/yes/no) (and the same for shop:bicycle:repair). -- Dieterdreist 17:25, 29 March 2011 (BST)
- It looks like your criticism mainly boils down to the fact that I described diy as "freely available tools". If I remove the word "freely", would you still require attributes to be mixable? --FedericoCozzi 07:35, 30 March 2011 (BST)
Explicitly enumerate common types
Currently the examples include "city, road, track, cyclocross, touring, bmx, tandem, mtb, XC, DH, AM, FR, etc". It would be good to at least establish consistent capitalization (why "bmx" in lower case but "XC" in upper-case, for example)? Otherwise people will use this inconsistently. -- Mbiker
One should avoid abbreviations. While "bmx" and "mtb" are quite generic terms and are in widespread use XC, DH, AM, FR are known only by experts. It would be better to use the words crosscountry, downhill, allmountain and freeride. Even if someone (like me) is not really aware of the differences these words are better remembered than the corresponding abbreviation.
BTW: I'm not sure wether this deep specification is useful. In my view city (general purpous), road (trecking bikes?), race (road race, maybe cyclocross), mtb (mountain bikes including all specialyties) should be enough for the John Dow mapper. tandem and trikes might be added to this list for those few shops that are specialized in this kind of bikes. --EvanE
- Well for the mtb types. Yes they are specific, and in most cases general mtb will suffice. However take Vienna as a city, there are probably about 200 shops where one could say that they somehow sell mtbikes. But then for Freeride or DH there rest only 2-3 shops, where if you are lucky they carry the proper spares. Now inside big cities, usually there is no need to use OSM to find that shop, but it is different on the countryside. Take the Swiss canton Valais. In the Rhone valley I only know of one shop, that remotely caters for enduro to DH bikers. In the stations on the other hand quite a few shops exist that exclusively cater for enduro - DH bikers. If you're on a transalp, and common knowledge that shopping is best where most people live (hence the valley) will lead to disaster. Only thing is maybe, we should layout the subgroups better, so it becomes clearer on what to enter. I bet in "your" general purpose mtb shop it will be hard to get a 150mm rear wheel on stock, or a good 2-ply tire selection (if lucky they might have 2ply Minions, but then they have at least 20 different cross country tires on stock).--Extremecarver 13:54, 28 April 2011 (BST)
Tag it as service ?
Instead of create a new key, why not use the tag service as it could be with shop=car ? For example :
- A bicycle shop just for selling : shop=bicycle + service=dealer
- A d-i-y bicycle shop : shop=bicycle + service=doityourself
- A bicycle shop for repair, with pump and wash : shop=bicycle + service=repair;pump;wash
- Etc...
And for a supermarket or an hotel who rents bicycle, we may add service:bicycle=* with precision about the service. --Dri60 21:33, 29 March 2011 (BST)
- I like the idea of using the service instead of the shop prefix, but I don't like removing the bicycle part: service=pump, when applied to a hotel, becomes meaningless. service:bicycle:pump=* is much clearer. I suppose I'll change the proposed namespace from shop:bicycle to service:bicycle --FedericoCozzi 07:35, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- Sorry, I think I badly expressed myself about hotels or supermarkets. For places different of shop=bicycle, we may tag like this : tourism=hotel + service:bicycle=rental;pump;etc. Tagged like that, we know that the service in the place is for bicycle, and it gives us a shorter key. --Dri60 16:19, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- I see your point now, but I don't like having different keys for shop=bicycle and for anything else. Besides, using a semicolon-separated list is not optimal in this case: how do you tag a bicycle shop which does not repair bikes? I agree that the proposed keys are long, but this stuff should really belong to a preset-dialog (moreover, you would use these keys quite rarely) --FedericoCozzi 18:06, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- It's also possible to use the tag service:bicycle=* in all cases. For the bicycle shop which doesn't repair bikes, just this : shop=bicycle + service:bicycle=dealer. For the semicolon-separated list, I don't know if it's optimal, but it's also used with Key:sport and indicated in the FAQ. Well, could be better use different keys for each service, but still with the service tag (instead of shop) : service:bicycle:rental=yes/no --Dri60 20:40, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- The problem with semicolon-separated list is: how do you tag features which are known NOT to be present? You say: simply don't put them in the list. However this doesn't work in the long run. Suppose that you tag a shop like this: shop=bicycle + service:bicycle=dealer. Some months later, another OSMer invents service:bicycle=accessories which means that the shop sells bicycle accessories. Your shop sells bikes AND accessories, so it should have been tagged shop=bicycle + service:bicycle=dealer;accessories. But you didn't tag it that way! (how could you know?) If I look at the map, I deduce that that shop does NOT sell accessories. This is wrong.--FedericoCozzi 09:16, 31 March 2011 (BST)
- I agree, we don't know with a semicolon-separated list if the missing values are unknown values or an absent service... So, a list of service:bicycle:xxx=yes/no tags is better, I approve ;-) --Dri60 17:26, 31 March 2011 (BST)
- i also think yes/no values are better. if this gets approved, maybe you could start a new proposal for an adaption of the service namespace for shop=cars --Flaimo 22:18, 17 April 2011 (BST)
- I changed it to service now, as general consensus seemed to go this way.--Extremecarver 10:03, 26 April 2011 (BST)
- i also think yes/no values are better. if this gets approved, maybe you could start a new proposal for an adaption of the service namespace for shop=cars --Flaimo 22:18, 17 April 2011 (BST)
- I agree, we don't know with a semicolon-separated list if the missing values are unknown values or an absent service... So, a list of service:bicycle:xxx=yes/no tags is better, I approve ;-) --Dri60 17:26, 31 March 2011 (BST)
- The problem with semicolon-separated list is: how do you tag features which are known NOT to be present? You say: simply don't put them in the list. However this doesn't work in the long run. Suppose that you tag a shop like this: shop=bicycle + service:bicycle=dealer. Some months later, another OSMer invents service:bicycle=accessories which means that the shop sells bicycle accessories. Your shop sells bikes AND accessories, so it should have been tagged shop=bicycle + service:bicycle=dealer;accessories. But you didn't tag it that way! (how could you know?) If I look at the map, I deduce that that shop does NOT sell accessories. This is wrong.--FedericoCozzi 09:16, 31 March 2011 (BST)
- It's also possible to use the tag service:bicycle=* in all cases. For the bicycle shop which doesn't repair bikes, just this : shop=bicycle + service:bicycle=dealer. For the semicolon-separated list, I don't know if it's optimal, but it's also used with Key:sport and indicated in the FAQ. Well, could be better use different keys for each service, but still with the service tag (instead of shop) : service:bicycle:rental=yes/no --Dri60 20:40, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- I see your point now, but I don't like having different keys for shop=bicycle and for anything else. Besides, using a semicolon-separated list is not optimal in this case: how do you tag a bicycle shop which does not repair bikes? I agree that the proposed keys are long, but this stuff should really belong to a preset-dialog (moreover, you would use these keys quite rarely) --FedericoCozzi 18:06, 30 March 2011 (BST)
Need type of bicycle
There needs to be a system to tell the user what kind of bicycle on may rent/buy and what the shop specialises on. Especially near bikeparks there are many shops that only sell/rent DH and FR bikes. In cities on the other hand shops that go for more than AM MTB are rare. This is important also for repairs, If you show up with a MTB in a shop selling mainly street racing bikes and city / trekking bikes, you may have problems getting the parts that you need for repair or maintenance (e.g. disk brake pads or rotors, or they have no tubes for your tire size) - maybe they won't even have the tools needed to repair your bike. --Extremecarver 09:49, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- Very useful. But how would you list these types? Would shop:bicycle:focus=racing;mtb suffice? Is there a standard list of bicycle types? I am afraid a racing-bicycle user couldn't tell the difference between FR and AM. Moreover, while being so specific could be useful, it is just a map, not a business directory. It should answer basic questions like "I am a cycle-tourist, my bike broke, where should I go to have it repaired?". If you are near a bikepark, you could try the shop even if it is not specialised on racing bicycles... --FedericoCozzi 12:26, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- I don't like ";" I would propose we have to work out a list of values and each one is yes/no. Basically I think in Europe we have 3 kind of shops. General bicycle shops (repair/sales), road racing specialisation, and general mtb specialisation. Then there are really specialised shops like triathlon or gravity MTB (=FR/DH) or unicycle shops and so on. While if you're close to a bikepark, you usually always find replacement parts for your FR/DH bike, doing a "transalp" with focus on difficult trails may mean big trouble to get a replacement tyre (very few shops will carry >1.2kg 2ply DH tyres) or finding a new full face helmet cause after crashing (and not wanting a 1.5kg MX helmet). Though road cycling stuff is usually available everywhere as a lot of mtbikers use road cycle for workouts and internet sales are not as popular as for mtbiking stuff.
- Your ideas are very good. I will try to come out with a good tagging scheme, because they are a bit complex and if I make a list of values, someone will feel excluded ("you included unicycles and not recumbents? what about trikes?") --FedericoCozzi 16:37, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- Nah, include them all. Basically we have general bike, road bikes, mtbikes and special purpose bikes like trikes, unicycles and so on. By default the assumption is on general bikes only. So for a shop that has general bikes and mtbikes I would say shop=bicycle service:bicycle:mtb=yes ; service:bicycle:mtb:gravity=no optional (assuming it does not have Freeride and DH bikes or stocks on dh tubes, 2ply tires, 83mm bottom brackets, and so on) -- usually I would not expect a shop to carry such stuff. therefore if not indicated, assumption is that the gravity sector is not catered for. If a shop rents special cycles I would have keys like service:bicycle:hire:road_cycle=yes or service:bicycle:hire:mtb=yes or more precise service:bicycle:hire:mtb:gravity=yes. I know theese keys get long, but that's mostly important to renderers only --Extremecarver 19:15, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- Your ideas are very good. I will try to come out with a good tagging scheme, because they are a bit complex and if I make a list of values, someone will feel excluded ("you included unicycles and not recumbents? what about trikes?") --FedericoCozzi 16:37, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- I don't like ";" I would propose we have to work out a list of values and each one is yes/no. Basically I think in Europe we have 3 kind of shops. General bicycle shops (repair/sales), road racing specialisation, and general mtb specialisation. Then there are really specialised shops like triathlon or gravity MTB (=FR/DH) or unicycle shops and so on. While if you're close to a bikepark, you usually always find replacement parts for your FR/DH bike, doing a "transalp" with focus on difficult trails may mean big trouble to get a replacement tyre (very few shops will carry >1.2kg 2ply DH tyres) or finding a new full face helmet cause after crashing (and not wanting a 1.5kg MX helmet). Though road cycling stuff is usually available everywhere as a lot of mtbikers use road cycle for workouts and internet sales are not as popular as for mtbiking stuff.
- Oh and just as a general thing. By default I would say any shop sells and repairs the same stuff. There should only be an exception key if a shop has no repair facilities or only repairs stuff. Also cycle hire should be assumed to be city/trekking bikes. If other bikes are available (road cycling, general purpose mtb, gravity mtbikes) then there should be a special key for it.--Extremecarver 15:18, 30 March 2011 (BST)--Extremecarver 15:18, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- I don't think we can map every little exception. This kind of stuff should belong to a description key. However I agree that, if a bike shop specialises on a specific kind of bike, it happens across all its services e.g. if it sells road bikes, it repairs road bikes and (if it rents bikes) it rents road bikes.--FedericoCozzi 16:37, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- Oh and just as a general thing. By default I would say any shop sells and repairs the same stuff. There should only be an exception key if a shop has no repair facilities or only repairs stuff. Also cycle hire should be assumed to be city/trekking bikes. If other bikes are available (road cycling, general purpose mtb, gravity mtbikes) then there should be a special key for it.--Extremecarver 15:18, 30 March 2011 (BST)--Extremecarver 15:18, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- I included a new key (format service:bicycle:(insert type)) into the list. Everyone should be free to enter additional values if really needed (tagwatch / tagstat will give a nice list in the long run once the proposal has been accepted and used.--Extremecarver 10:05, 26 April 2011 (BST)
- I don't like that it does not support yes/no values. I find the sell/rent/rent_and_sell values confusing. If you could solve this problem, I would like it.--FedericoCozzi 22:29, 2 May 2011 (BST)
- Well I don't want to have the values twice. That makes it even worse to implement (needs two times the amount of fields). And again, it's useless as description, as one cannot read description into a database. I'll use the specialisation key for my maps (and make sure they'll get used, just like mtb:scale (>80.000 uses).--Extremecarver 23:56, 2 May 2011 (BST)
- I don't like that it does not support yes/no values. I find the sell/rent/rent_and_sell values confusing. If you could solve this problem, I would like it.--FedericoCozzi 22:29, 2 May 2011 (BST)
Bicycle Specialisation saved back
Specialisation on certain types of bicycles
- - Use the following keys to describe the type of bicycles sold or rented better. This is useful to describe shops that specialise in certain bicycles. In general three types of bicycles exist. City/general (use service:bicycle:city), road (service:bicycle:road) and mtb (service:bicycle:mtb), but further specialisation is possible. The bicycle market has evolved so much, that no shop/service can cater for all needs.
- - For example if you have a downhill bike, you will need a shop to carry heavy 2-ply tires, fat tubes, 150mm axles, double-T forks, steel spring dampers,... Stuff that the general cycle store will not have in stock, and may not have the proper tools to repair.
- - Add any/all of the following keys if they apply.
-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -| key
- |
possible values
- |
Shop caters for / specialises in the following types of cycles.
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|---|---|---|
| service:bicycle:general
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
this place is not selling/renting special purpose bicycles. One can expect a mix of city, children bikes as well as a small range of road/mtb cycles to be available.
- |
| service:bicycle:city
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
city bicycles
- |
| service:bicycle:road
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
road bicycles...
- |
| service:bicycle:mtb
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
mountainbikes (general - see below for more detailed specialisation)...
- |
| service:bicycle:cyclocross
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
cyclocross bicycles...
- |
| service:bicycle:touring
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
touring/trekking bicycles...
- |
| service:bicycle:tandem
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
tandem bicycles...
- |
| service:bicycle:children
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
children bicycles (up to 24" tires)
- |
| service:bicycle:unicycle
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
Unicycles bicycles too.
- |
| service:bicycle:unicycle:offroad
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
Unicycles to go onto trails/offroad are becoming more and more popular
- |
| service:bicycle:mtb:dh
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
downhill and freeride mountainbikes (should should carry stuff like 2ply tires, sturdy rims, 203mm discs)...
- |
| service:bicycle:mtb:am
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
allmountain (trail, enduro ~ fullsuspension bikes with in general 120-180mm travel)...
- |
| service:bicycle:mtb:xc
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
Cross country and race mtbikes (hardtails or full suspension mtbikes with up to 140mm travel). Shop should cater for both disc and v-brakes.
- |
| service:bicycle:mtb:29
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
29er Mountainbikes are sold or rented or both. One can assume that such bicycles are also repaired, and common spare parts (for this type of bicycle) are in stock.
- |
| service:bicycle:mtb:fixie
- |
rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
Fixed gear bicycles...
- |
| service:bicycle:bmx
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
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bmx and street/trial bicycles...
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| service:bicycle:recumbent
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
Bicycle with a seat for a laid-back reclining position
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| service:bicycle:tricycle
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
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Tricycles (three wheeled recumbent bike)
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| service:bicycle:velomobile
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rent/sell/sell_and_rent/no
- |
Three wheeled recumbent bike with a enclosure
- |
Language
The values at present are rather ugly and unintuitive English (that's not a criticism, we can't all be native speakers of every language ;) ).
To be consistent, they should all be nouns, rather than a mix of nouns and verbs. So:
- shop:bicycle:retail rather than "sell"
- shop:bicycle:cleaning rather than "wash"
"Focus" is a largely meaningless word and best avoided. "Speciality" or "market" would be better.
On one specific tag, I wonder whether simply "bicycle_pump" would be better than "shop:bicycle:pump". Quite a lot of non-bike shop businesses (e.g. pubs and B&Bs) have bike pumps. --Richard 13:41, 30 March 2011 (BST)
- Thanks for the suggestion, I am not a native speaker and I was exactly looking for help. I incorporated your ideas (I used "market" instead of "speciality" which is more difficult to type). I really like your idea of using "bicycle_pump" instead of "shop:bicycle:pump" but I am too lazy to make a separate proposal... --FedericoCozzi 13:52, 30 March 2011 (BST)
Comments on the whole scheme
We already have amenity=bicycle_rental for bike rental, it would be nice to not introduce a duplicate. Furthermore, I'm not happy about the chosen namespace - service:bicycle:*=* implies that those tags are a more specific category than would appear under service=*, but service=* is a tag relating to the purpose of a service highway. Perhaps these tags should be under amenity:bicycle:*=* instead? --Spark 20:13, 13 May 2011 (BST)
- service:bicycle:rental=* isn't redundant with amenity=bicycle_rental because it can be applied in other places where bicycle rental isn't the principal principal service (for example an hotel). Moreover, the definition of amenity=bicycle_rental seems to not apply on shops : "Note: this proposal does not concern bicycle rental shops: use shop=bicycle for those."
- About the service=* key, it's used like in the shop=car tag (there's a reference to this tag in the service=* wiki page). --Dri60 09:34, 14 May 2011 (BST)
- Fair enough on the rental aspect. I didn't notice that service=* is being used for other things than service highways, but I still think that amenity=* makes a better root namespace for these tags - from the amenity tag page: "This is the primary tag for useful and important facilities for visitors and residents". I think these various bicycle tags definitely count as useful and important facilities.
- I'm very much in favour of this proposal overall, I would just like to see it placed in the correct namespace, if only to make it easier to find! --Spark 17:21, 16 May 2011 (BST)