Proposal talk:Shelter type
Campaign shelters
Resolved: Flaimo 13:03, 27 April 2011 (BST)*There's another shelter type : country/campaign shelters, commonly in wood, small-sized (1.5m*1m*1.9m) which can be found along roads in the middle of fields or forests. They are used by cyclists and walkers to wait during rain/storm. They seem to be like mountain_shelter, but they aren't in mountain, so they aren't mountain shelter. Could be better use small_shelter or weather_shelter (or something like) more generic instead of mountain_shelter to describe all shelters of this type (small, generally in wood). --Dri60 11:35, 26 April 2011 (BST)
- good idea, i'll change the value --Flaimo 17:46, 26 April 2011 (BST)
tourism=lean_to
Stale: Flaimo 13:13, 27 April 2011 (BST)Note that the Proposed features/Lean to proposal covers some cases of shelter_type you mentioned in your proposal. sletuffe 15:01, 26 April 2011 (BST)
- it actually seems to be exactly what amenity=shelter without an additional tag already is right now. besides that, i don't think it is a good idea to put it under the tourism key, since that is not the only purpose for shelters. --Flaimo 17:55, 26 April 2011 (BST)
amenity=hunting_stand
Resolved: Flaimo 13:03, 27 April 2011 (BST)What about deprecating amenity=hunting_stand with a shelter subtag? Or is it a subtag for wildlife_hide? It should be mentioned, that amenity=hunting_stand is deprecated, because it's only a shelter for a specific use, like the noted one for birds. --DINENISO 08:22, 27 April 2011 (BST)
- it would fit in as a value, but according to tagwatch amenity=hunting_stand is already used 20000 times, so i don't think that it counts as deprecated. i add it to the list though and note that it is an alternative for amenity=hunting_stand --Flaimo 10:59, 27 April 2011 (BST)
- Currently amenity=hunting_stand is not deprecated, but perhabs it should be declared deprecated as soon as this proposal is approved and used. The old tag is widely used, but look at the new public transport scheme, for a new and consistent scheme you could change existing, widely used tags; this should be an aspect --DINENISO 12:14, 27 April 2011 (BST)
- Many of the hunting stands I've seen here in Finland only have a small horizontal platform to sit on, which is hardly big enough to count as a shelter; if there's absolutely no wind at all when it rains, only one person standing right under it might stay dry for some time. Two, no way, any wind, no way. Otherwise there could be numerous urban constructs that could be tagged as if providing shelter from the rain - not that we shouldn't start tagging such also, but IMO they are too far away from the concept of amenity=shelter. Alv 13:29, 27 April 2011 (BST)
Public transport shelters and new tagging scheme
Resolved: Flaimo 13:03, 27 April 2011 (BST)* The recently approved Proposed_features/Public_Transport tagging scheme tags a public transport shelter with public_transport=platform (on a node) + shelter=yes. We may precise that a public transport shelter could be tag with amenity=shelter + shelter_type=public_transport only if public transport scheme couldn't be applied (missing informations...), or in case of micro-mapping (for example tag each shelter on a long platform). --Dri60 10:57, 27 April 2011 (BST)
- the usage of shelter=yes is already defined properly in that proposal. quote: "If there is a shelter that is not tagged separately with amenity=shelter". so you only use shelter=yes on platforms (node or ways), if you know that a certain stop has a shelter, but you cannot pinpoint its exact location (for example because of missing satellite images to draw from). i thought about a public_transport=shelter key first, but came to conclusion, that a generic shelter_type is more versatile. --Flaimo 11:07, 27 April 2011 (BST)
- Shelter=yes is used on bus stops regardless of the positional accuracy. A canopy at a bus stop is so much different in construction, protection and usage from wilderness/countryside shelters that it'd be, IMO, outright misleading to use the same amenity=shelter for them. You'd wait 15-20 minutes at most at a bus stop, which is orders less than at a amenity=shelter. Besides, shelter=yes (or other, more descriptive values) could be used with other structures that provide some temporary shelter from the elements, starting with building overhangs. Alv 09:39, 16 May 2011 (BST)
- a bus shelter is a shelter. that is why it has the name "shelter" in it. it provides protection from weather conditions and was build exactly for that purpose (in contract to your example of rooftops). how long it provides shelter doesn't matter. i think you are trying to hard to abstract the term. --Flaimo 15:07, 16 May 2011 (BST)
- Is the provision of shelter from the elements what defines the bus stop as an amenity, though? For example, they often include waste baskets or benches. There's already cases of 72 000 shelter=yes, and of the 125 000 total shelter tags 112 000 are on a node with a highway=* tag, presumably virtually all of them highway=bus_stop. There are so many different things that can act as a shelter besides their designed function, that expanding the amenity=shelter to all of them would dilute the content of the tag, whereas attaching shelter={kind} to anything is a natural description of the notable characteristics of any feature, be it man made or natural. Alv 10:16, 18 May 2011 (BST)
- a bus shelter is a shelter. that is why it has the name "shelter" in it. it provides protection from weather conditions and was build exactly for that purpose (in contract to your example of rooftops). how long it provides shelter doesn't matter. i think you are trying to hard to abstract the term. --Flaimo 15:07, 16 May 2011 (BST)
- Shelter=yes is used on bus stops regardless of the positional accuracy. A canopy at a bus stop is so much different in construction, protection and usage from wilderness/countryside shelters that it'd be, IMO, outright misleading to use the same amenity=shelter for them. You'd wait 15-20 minutes at most at a bus stop, which is orders less than at a amenity=shelter. Besides, shelter=yes (or other, more descriptive values) could be used with other structures that provide some temporary shelter from the elements, starting with building overhangs. Alv 09:39, 16 May 2011 (BST)
Park / Picnic shelter
Resolved: added value --Flaimo 12:08, 18 May 2011 (BST)MikeN 16:49, 17th May 2011 (BST) I've been using shelter for picnic shelters located in parks. Park Shelters example Should we add a type=picnic_shelter ?
- i'll add it --Flaimo 11:59, 18 May 2011 (BST)
Just Use Shelter
Stale The shelter=yes tag on platforms indicates the presence of a shelter, but without stating the type. It makes more sense to extend the shelter key to support more specific information about the nature of the shelter rather than require a separate shelter_type key. A value of yes in the presence of public_transport key can be implicitly taken to mean shelter=public_transport.--Pink Duck 08:58, 18 May 2011 (BST)
- Indeed (or on a highway=bus_stop, too). That would allow extending the values to make-do shelters, say under sufficiently protruding corners of buildings and the like in urban environments. Alv 10:16, 18 May 2011 (BST)
- Your definition is a bit wrong. shelter=yes is a sidecar tag mapped on an element with another main key that is not a shelter (like highway=platform) to indicate that there is a shelter somewhere, but cannot be exactly pinpointed (because for lack of satellite images). i can't just go and give it a completely different meaning of a refinement tag for an element mapped with amenity=shelter. --Flaimo 12:41, 18 May 2011 (BST)
- The majority of shelter=yes tags are on highway=bus_stop nodes already at the shelter location, there's nothing "somewhere" about it. Alv 17:22, 18 May 2011 (BST)
- besides the fact that highway=bus_stop is outdated because of the new public transport scheme, it is imprecise by itself. in the old scheme it is mapped besides the road. in the new scheme it is tagged on the road itself for backwards compatibility. please go through the new scheme to see on how shelter=yes is used now. --Flaimo 21:54, 18 May 2011 (BST)
- (Apparently it's not that easy to stumble upon the statistics so that one could make the connection between the dates that coincide with that scheme's proposal discussion.) No matter what tag is used for the position beside the road, that position is at the pole/shelter - as has been recommended from the start, no matter which "scheme". Position possibly tagged on the road is totally irrelevant for shelters and this dicussion. Position beside the road is relevant, and the majority of things already tagged with shelter=yes are as-precisely-as-can-be at the shelter location. The sentence you quote further up does not say one should use amenity=shelter for every bus stop with a shelter, but says that only if it is already a amenity=shelter, you could omit shelter=yes. Using shelter=* on other objects, that are not tagged bus_stop/platform/whatever will not redefine the tag for the older cases. Alv 23:10, 18 May 2011 (BST)