Proposal talk:Training

New key for education

I think, all the educational institutions should be moved from "amenity" to the new "education" key: education=kindergarten, education=school, education=college, education=university, education=training. --Surly 18:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there a proposal for the Education key? --Guerda 09:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

No. It was just my thoughts. If you can and want, create it. I speak and write English badly, and such long English texts would be difficult for me. --Surly 17:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Some thoughts about "Education" key

Bringing educational institutions to the "Education" key will:

• allow us simplify rather overloaded "Amenity" key;
• make possible to find all the educational organization by searching only "education" key, no need to parse values of the tag in some cases;
• allow create many other types of educational organizations (today many OSMers resist to propose them because of overloaded nature of "amenity" key).

General education should be under values "kindergarten", "school", "college", "university". Short-term schools that train in various hobbies and useful skills and crafts (such as dancing, sewing, driving cars, light aviation flying) should not be tagged as "school". "training" value should be used, let's leave "school" only for general education of children.

There are also short-term professional traings (they train in professional skills, not hobbies), such as "Windows user", "Cisco admin". Should we tag them as "training" also? or should provide the special tag value for them?

--Surly 17:55, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

This sounds good, can we have a vote on it? --ChrisClemson 15:04, 15 September 2012 (BST)

Plural?

Resolved

Can you please decide if you want to have plural or singular in the value. Thanks Lulu-Ann

I changed all items to singular. "Martial art" sounds a bit strange to me though. --Eliyak 19:28, 12 September 2011 (BST)

Added "private_classes" because it is not used in singular. Kresp0 (talk) 20:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

-amenity=traning +training=*

Resolved

I like the idea of a training, but I think amenity=traning is too general. --AndiG88 (talk) 08:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Pizzaiolo (talk) 04:23, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Refine tagging and explain values

You need to be more specific on the meaning of the proposed value. Just add a sentence or two.

I.e. driving: Is it limited to cars or is any kind of driving included (including, let's say, bicycles)? Is it a driving school or can it also be applied to any place which can be used to practise driving (“Verkehrsübungsplatz” in German)? The other values may need refinement, too.

Also, I think the whole thing needs to mention other tags of interest.

I.e.

• operator=*: Who operates this facility
• name=*: The name of this facility (if applicable)
• fee=*: Whether a fee is charged

--Wuzzy (talk) 13:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I do also see need to clarify the values. For example, I've massive difficulties to imagine what training=professional means, e.g. would training for professional dancers account for training=professional or training=dance or any of the both? --Schoschi (talk) 00:31, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Reactivate proposal

Resolved

I'm interested in the reactivation and develope of this proposal. I'll wait a few days before do anything, just in case Guerda wants to take care of it. Lanxana (talk) 14:57, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I would like to as well. The author doesn't seem to be active. I'll start editing. --Lectrician1 (talk) 17:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Education_centre# Something B (talk) 22:55, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Right key?

Resolved

To me, training seems to not be an amenity but a service. As this service is in many cases offered at an amenity, conflicts with "actual" amenity values seem likely: amenity=school, amenity=driving_school, amenity=language_school, amenity=library, amenity=music_school, amenity=university, amenity=boat_rental, amenity=community_centre, amenity=townhall.

Would it avoid conflicts if we replace amenity=training with service=training? --Martianfreeloader (talk) 14:27, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

For additional "training" service the training=* tag may be used, without amenity=training. But this proposal primary targets is training centers, courses, etc. Something B (talk) 14:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I think amenity=training_centre would be less confusing in this case (take my own confusion as evidence...). --Martianfreeloader (talk) 14:48, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that amenity=training_centre is less confusing, but amenity=training is used more 3000 times, and semantics amenity=training isn't confusing or ambiguous at all. Something B (talk) 14:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

After reading again, I'm still confused:

• "this proposal primary targets is training centers, courses". These are two very different things to me. A training centre is a specific type of amenity, while a course is a service that can be offered in many different types of amenities.
• The Rationale currently reads "All public places where you can be trained should be tagged as amenity=training, e.g. driving school, dance school etc.". This does not mention training centres. Instead it seems to conflict with the amenity values I've mentioned above (e. g. amenity=driving_school).

--Martianfreeloader (talk) 15:02, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Definition has been fixed. amenity=training may be used for driving schools also, because it is generic. Something B (talk) 15:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

What would be the advantage over continuing to use amenity=driving_school? --Martianfreeloader (talk) 17:11, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You better consider amenity=driver_training together for the driving course. --- Kovposch (talk) 10:44, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't get it. Some kind of inside joke? --Martianfreeloader (talk) 17:17, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Why deprecate established values?

Resolved

It's not clear to me all the values listed in the Features / Pages affected section (e. g. amenity=dancing_school would and should be deprecated. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 17:14, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep, "trade_school" is one that definitely needs to be kept, either as the existing amenity= or under the new key as training= --Fizzie41 (talk) 22:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I added training=trade to the list. Tags that declared as "deprecated" are redundant, but they may be kept, if someone objects to depreciation. Something B (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

---

I think the proposal has improved a lot. Thanks for patiently accommodating all the nagging. Here is some more. :-) I don't think amenity=training_centre should deprecate any other tags. Rather, it should be an additional tag, namely for those cases where the amenity cannot be described more precisely. This can be the case

• either because the amenity offers multiple kinds of trainings. For example amenity=training_centre + training=surfing;sailing
• or because an amenity tag for the specific kind of training centre does not exist. For example, it probably doesn't make sense to introduce amenity=typewriter_school . In this case, amenity=training_centre + training=typewriter could be used.

Hence my suggestion:

1) Do not deprecate any amenity=* values.

2) Add a Rationale section along these lines:

A training centre is a facility that provides various additional or special training. The specific types of trainings that are offered can be tagged using the training=* tag.

If only one type of training is offered for which a more specific amenity=* value exists, than this specific tag should be used. For example, for a facility that only offers flight training, use amenity=flight_school instead of amenity=training_centre + training=flying .

If an amenity uses only one type of training but there is no amenity=* tag for this because it is a very rare type, then it is ok to use amenity=training_centre. For example, it is ok to use amenity=training_centre + training=typewriter rather than inventing amenity=typewriter_school .

Decision which amenity=* value to use

Kinds of trainings offered	Specific amenity tag exists	Value to use	Example	Avoid
multiple	irrelevant	training_centre	amenity=training_centre + training=surfing;sailing	amenity=surf_school;sailing_school
1	yes	specific tag	amenity=surf_school	amenity=training_centre + training=surfing
1	no	training_centre	amenity=training_centre + training=typewriter	amenity=typewriter_school

--Martianfreeloader (talk) 10:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

I prefer not using them anymore myself. Keeping them while introducing amenity=training_centre is potentially troublesome. Instead. since amenity=training is being moved to a new *=training_centre anyway, it could use education=training_centre. This maintains backwards compatibility in the widespread amenity=*_school, while promoting future growth in education=* and training*=* to prevent further bloat in amenity=*. The semantics is an improvement over education=centre as well. --- Kovposch (talk) 11:09, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Just so I understand, by them do you mean tags like amenity=surf_school? If so, is the reason you don't want to use them anymore that you want to prevent amenity=* from bloating? --Martianfreeloader (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

One main tag for training centers allows, for example, rendering only one tag instead of many, same as amenity=social_facility. Something B (talk) 23:46, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Usage of amenity=*_school tags:

LOADING TAG LIST...

Ok. with this explanation, the proposal makes a lot of sense to me. I strongly suggest explaining the purpose of the proposal (grouping a large group of similar amenities under one tag) in a Rationale section! I expect this will increase support. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 07:49, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Renaming back to training

Thanks for adding the Rationale section!

Now that I understand the intention of the proposal (which I think makes sense), I'd actually suggest to rename the tag back to amenity=training (or maybe even something better). I know it was me who triggered the first renaming from amenity=training to amenity=training_centre, but that was because I absolutely didn't get the idea behind the proposal. Now, being enlightened, I think calling a driving school a training centre sounds too strange. I'd rather accept the linguistic inaccuracy that training is not an amenity. The tag could still be read as "this is a training amenity". Sorry for my back-and-forth suggestions. I honestly didn't get the whole idea behind the proposal until now. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 17:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Precise & non-confusing tag

Resolved

Both training and training centre are a thing, but they are something different. I suggest using amenity=training_centre if that is what is to be mapped. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 17:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Multiple values for training=*

Resolved: Proposal now explicitly allows listing multiple values

The same service provider may offer training=sailing in summer and training=ski in winter. Another might offer training=computer classes and training=language classes. Ho to tag that? I'd propose to allow listing values like for cuisine, so training=sailing;ski. --Schoschi (talk) 00:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Similarly, a driving school may also double as a training center for automotive repair or a police academy. The ability to confidently make something a training center training in multiple fields is a clear advantage over the current panoply of amenity=* values, to answer Martianfreeloader's question above. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 02:21, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Overlap with test prep centers

In the part of the U.S. where I live, it's very common for the same facility to offer training in math, language, and music. (And training in abacus usage, as I discovered earlier this year.) Currently, they're tagged as amenity=prep_school, but some might be better described as amenity=training_centre. I'm unsure if we should keep amenity=prep_school separate or fold it into this proposal. They're a kind of training center in some sense, but perhaps less time-intensive, similar to the distinction between amenity=childcare and amenity=kindergarten. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 02:27, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Tag:amenity=prep_school#Caution shows the meaning is not ideal. Besides, there is office=tutoring and office=educational_institution, unclear if they are the teaching venue, or consulting and administration side. --- Kovposch (talk) 10:51, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The amenity=prep_school tag partially overlaps with the amenity=training and the amenity=tuition. amenity=training isn't clear replacement for it. Something B (talk) 22:29, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Something B: The reason I bring this up is that a single business is often both amenity=prep_school and amenity=training. The proposal could offer some guidance for handling this situation. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 17:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Teaching vs practical exercise

There is an opportunity to use training_centre=* for the facility it is. For amenity=driving_school, there is amenity=driver_training for the driving course, which may not be located together with the teaching venue. Elsewhere, there is amenity=workshop (for craftsmanship or engineering and construction) and amenity=studio (arts and media), maybe even amenity=theatre (it is to be distinguished from professional drama schools which is more amenity=college), for use in training and education. Proposed_features/Education_2.0 had ideas for simulators. There is even an unclear education=exercise_area. Accordingly such cases can be added in training_centre=*. This shows what "centre" it is more clearly, since previous examples of education=centre and healthcare=centre have issue with this. --- Kovposch (talk) 11:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe amenity=training_exercise_area? Something B (talk) 21:49, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

A facility can do both lecturing (theory) and exercise (practical) , or only either of them. I can't think of good training_centre=* val that will cover all 3 cases. Other options are moving them into training_centre=*_school / training_centre=*_training (if amenity=workshop, amenity=studio, and amenity=theatre are still added; this may help with the transition away from amenity=*; or eg training:theory=yes + training:practical=main (ie for a driving course where there is a small room to give talks, cf Proposed_features/Education_2.0#Educational_services).
"Exercise area" itself is not very clear. Looks to be for school playground or parade grounds to have physical exercise, gathering, and marching.
Ps https://app.slack.com/client/T029HV94T/C2VJAJCS0/thread/C2VJAJCS0-1611645153.070700 is the discussion about drama rehearsal --- which is not really "training"; "studio" is mentioned alongside.
--- Kovposch (talk) 11:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Possibly amenity=training_area? Same as military=training_area. Something B (talk) 13:41, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I want to avoid creating another amenity=* if they are overlapping. --- Kovposch (talk) 13:29, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

More examples

Good idea, I can think of other examples that I encounter that would be great to support as well:

• Circus school
• Theater school
• Musical theater school

Animal training?

Shall this tag (and subtag training=*) also be applicable for the training of animals? In other words, shall it replace animal=school and amenity=animal_training? --Hufkratzer (talk) 19:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

No, this tag for human training only. :-) Something B (talk) 21:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Group "sports" together

The proposal currently suggests replacing various sport schools with the equivalent training= tag e.g. surfing, sailing, skiing. I've just cleared a Note to add the details for a swimming school to a public swimming pool, & was wondering if it may be easier / better to group all sport training together as training=sport + sport=surfing / sailing / skiing / swimming / etc? --Fizzie41 (talk) 04:59, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

It is more complicated. This variant has some benefits? Something B (talk) 23:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Maybe apply this kind of scheme:

• amenity=training
• training=sports
• training:surfing=yes
• training:sailing=yes
• etc.

This way individual training type tags could be applied not just to other amenities apart from training centres like yacht clubs, theatres, art centres etc. --VileGecko (talk) 12:02, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

training=sport + sport=surfing;sailing is better and more consistent overall. You can still propose sport:*=* to use sport:surfing=yes + sport:sailing=yesl. Kovposch (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Maritime Training Centres

Seafarers require a certain set of certificates corresponding to their position to work on board of ships. Such certificates are typically valid for 5 years (considering that they should stay valid for the whole duration of a contract documents are usually renewed every 4 years). Most of these are listed in the STCW-95 Convention. Therefore training centres providing courses for those certificates are a common sight in countries providing considerable number of crews e.g. India, the Philippines, Ukraine, China etc.

I'd propose to mark them this way:

• amenity=training
• training=maritime --VileGecko (talk) 11:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

The problem with this is some may be one or part of a amenity=college. Adding training=maritime leads to the question of showing all of the trainings a institution or academy offers. --- Kovposch (talk) 13:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

This centers isn't a colleges, because their services isn't the "further education", as provided by the colleges. Something B (talk) 13:33, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Further education is usually professional or vocational relating to industry and work experience. It isn't the higher education in universities. --- Kovposch (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Maritime training centres are very different from colleges and other educational institutions. In a maritime college you receive a diploma valid for your lifetime - and that's it. In a maritime training centre you pass certain short-term courses usually within a week or two and receive a separate certificate of proficiency (CoP) for each one you pass. These include topics like accident prevention, first aid, lifeboats, security mangement, electronic chart proficiency etc. You only pass the ones you need at the moment. These Certificates only last for 5 years and you need to renew them on a regualar basis several at a time (it is impossible to keep the whole set within a similar expiry date range). Usually maritime training centres are separate privately-owned institutions however some colleges and crewing companies provide a certification of their own which is not a widespread practice though. There are also government-issued Certificates of Competence (CoC) + Endorsements to receive which one should pass an five-yearly exam and provide a set of documents including a diploma, a set of CoP, a medical certificate and others. Those also last for 5 years and should be renewed on a regular basis. So in short there are 3 kinds of separate institutions: 1) Government of privately-owned colleges providing maritime education; 2) Mostly privately owned maritime training centres; 3) Government certification centres not providing any education or training. --VileGecko (talk) 09:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

1. I mean those can offer STCW too. How do you show that? Adding training=maritime starts a question of how to show multiple trainings they have. Cf sport=safety_training is deprecated in favor of training=safety.
3. Then it's not "training". What to do with them?
Besides, if you are targeting STCW, there should better be a specific tag for that. Eg training:maritime=STCW. So another issue is clearly separating merchant, cruise and yacht workers from personal pleasure boat training.
What about offshore platform workers too? "Maritime" may be less obvious than "sailor" or similar.
--- Kovposch (talk) 10:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)