Proposal:Education 2.0
| Education 2.0 | |
|---|---|
| Proposal status: | Rejected (inactive) |
| Proposed by: | Keder |
| Tagging: | education, education_*=* |
| Applies to: |  , 
|
| Definition: | Proposal for more flexible and extensible tagging scheme for educational facilities |
| Statistics: |
|
| Rendered as: | various |
| Draft started: | 2016-01-28 |
| RFC start: | 2016-04-12 |
| Vote start: | 2016-07-17 |
| Vote end: | 2016-07-31 |
Proposal
New tagging scheme for educational facilities.
Rationale
There are several problems with current scheme using amenity=school, amenity=college etc. First problem, to select all objects related to education you need to have full and actual list of amenity=* values currently used for educational facilities. Second problem, there is no way to tag country-specific educational institutions, e.g. currently there is no way to discern elementary and high schools (in US education system) by tags, since they both are amenity=school. There are more other similar cases in other countries. There is also no proper way to tell specialization of the educational institution (to find music schools for example) or tag departments and schools of universities.
The idea of this proposal is to make extensible and flexible scheme to tag such institutions. This proposal is inspired by approved social_facility=* proposal and widely used "de facto" Healthcare 2.0 proposal and uses the same approach.
Current tagging system
It is obvious that it is not possible to retag almost million educational objects. Main purpose of this proposal is to give proper tagging system for mappers to tag details of educational facilities and only after that to replace current inflexible tagging system. Thus old tags should remain and new ones should go as addition to current scheme. Once the new tagging system becomes more common and supported, the old one would become obsolete.
Tagging
In the case when educational services are primary for institution use education=* and if they are only additional use education_service:*=yes. Tags should be added on the polygon encompassing the territory of the facility. When exact outline could not be determined, place tags on the point in the possible centre of facility.
Types of educational institutions
There are various types of educational institution which could or could not be part of certain education system. Tag education=* specifies role of the institution in particular educational system. Basic values of this tags are listed in the table below. Note that the set of values could be different for different education systems. For example, in educational system of USA instead of the single tag education=school it is possible to use education=elementary_school and education=high_school for two types of schools. For the values specific for local educational systems see this page
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education=kindergarten | Places where preschool children spend day time and get education while their parents at work. In case when there is no education services use amenity=daycare instead. |
| education=school | Institutions that educate children of ages from 7 to 18. They usually provide primary and/or secondary education. |
| education=college | Institutions that provide vocational training. For higher education institutions use education=university. |
| education=university | Higher education institutions. |
| education=subdivision | This tag is used for subdivisions of educational institutions like departments, schools (e.g. law schools in universities) etc. Such subdivisions are not independent and are considered as a part of the main institution. Use operator=* to specify parent organization. |
| education=courses | Is used for a small education institutions. The main difference of such institutions from others is sharing classes and buildings with other much bigger institutions while formally being independent from them. It could be driving, language, dance or other courses. |
| education=centre | Institutions that do not have exact role in education system or even do not belong to any educational system. Apart from previous value, such institutions are bigger and have their own territory and buildings. They provide more various education as well. |
| education=exercise_area | Training grounds, exercise areas and other places where students can improve their practical skills. Military and police forces as well as firefighters use such facilities for training. Such areas could be just training area for everyone (like driving yard where drivers could train for examinations) and has no education personnel (people train themselves). Add tag education_service:self_education=only to indicate self-training. In this context education_programme=* and education_profile=* shows what kind of education person could get by training himself. |
| education=laboratory | Educational laboratories for students to improve their laboratory working skills or to conduct experiments for educational purpose. |
Educational system
This key specifies educational system of the educational facility. Educational institution could have several educational systems or even none (in that case this tag is omitted). Note that even if facility is private it could belong to state educational system. You could add new educational systems in the table below.
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_system:ISO-3166_standard=yes | Educational system based on state educational standards. Put country code instead of ISO-3166, e.g. education_system:US_standard=yes for USA. If country does not use common educational standards, but instead every region of the country has its own education standard use ISO-3166 subdivision or some other code that local community agreed on (e.g. the one that is in country's ref=* tag). |
| education_system:waldorf=yes | Waldorf education. |
| education_system:monitorial=yes | Monitorial System. |
| education_system:montessori=yes | Montessori education. |
| education_system:religious=yes | Religious education system. Such system usually co-exists with state education system or sometimes could be main and only education system in country. Base of such educational system are religious views and values, so students are educated from the point of view of certain religion. Note that such institutions could have wide education profile and teach subjects other than religious like math, music, history etc. Use education_profile:*=yes to specify education profile and religion=* + denomination=* for religion of the institution. |
Educational services
Educational services provided by the institution could be tagged with education_service:*=yes. Main values of the tag shown in the table below:
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_service:training=yes | Most general tag to indicate that facility provides educational services. Tag education=* always implies education_service:training=yes, so use this tag only for institutions that provide education as an additional service, e.g. for massage parlor massage is main service and education is only additional. |
| education_service:practical_training=yes | Implies that establishment provides only practical education without theory. |
| education_service:lectures=yes | Implies that establishment provides only theoretical education without practice. |
| education_service:testing=yes | Testing services. For standard tests like TOEFL, GRE, GMAT etc use standard_testing:*=yes (e.g. standard_testing:toefl=yes for TOEFL). |
| education_service:self_education=yes/no/only | Indicates possibility of self education (without supervision). Such education usually means no dedicated teacher, enrollment, obligatory examination and obligatory attendance. Facility provides all needed equipment, information, books and other stuff for education. Value yes indicates that student could train without supervision but there is also ordinary supervised education. Value only specifies that there is only self education available. |
Educational infrastructure
There are different constructions, installations and equipment made for educational purposes. To map such objects use education_amenity:*=yes. Several examples are in the table below:
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_amenity:flight_simulator=yes | Installation that copies inner equipment of the plane cockpit and is used to train pilots. |
| education_amenity:driving_simulator=yes | Installation for training driving skills. See wikipedia article. |
| education_amenity:driving_snake=yes | Area with bollards (usually made of some light material) to train snake driving technique, so car repeatedly drives between bollards placed in one line, resembling snake movement. |
| education_amenity:first_aid_dummy=yes | Stationary mannequin that is used to train first aid skills like artificial respiration, chest compression and tourniquet usage. |
You can add new tags to the table.
Additional tags
Education profile
education_profile:*=yes specifies educational profile of institution. There could be several subjects that educational establishment specifies in, in that case add tag education_profile:*=yes for each subject. Main values are shown in the table below, but you can add other tags, e.g. for specialty in chemistry use education_profile:chemistry=yes. Try to use tag with the most exact meaning, for example for musical school use education_profile:music=yes instead of education_profile:art=yes. In some cases certain education_profile:*=yes is implied (schools usually provide general education for example), so you can omit this tag.
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_profile:general=yes | Education with a wide variety of subjects. Usually indicates a standard set of subjects for certain role in education system. So in the case of education=school it means an ordinary school without specialization. If there is also other tag of education_profile:*=yes group, then it means that schools has a specialization in certain field. And finally, if there is no education_profile:general=yes tag and any other education_profile:*=yes tag, then it means that school provides education only in this particular field. |
| education_profile:professional=yes | Vocational education is education for specific activity or profession. E.g. firefighter training, carpentry training etc. |
| education_profile:sport=yes | Sport education. Use sport=* to specify which particular sport is taught. |
| education_profile:art=yes | Education in several fields of art. |
| education_profile:music=yes | Music education. |
| education_profile:visual_arts=yes | Visual arts education. |
| education_profile:military=yes | Military education. |
| education_profile:languages=yes | Education in foreign languages. You can specify concrete languages that are taught with education_programme:language_ISO639-2=yes where instead ISO639-2 use appropriate ISO 639-2 code, e.g. education_programme:language_eng=yes for English. |
| education_profile:martial_arts=yes | Education in certain form of martial art. |
| education_profile:religion=yes | Education of some aspects of certain religion like history, main figures, holy scripts, rituals etc. In the case when several religions are taught use exact denominations names in tag, e.g. education_profile:jewish_orthodox_ashkenaz=yes + education_profile:jewish_orthodox_sefard=yes for two jewish orthodox denominations. Note that this tag specifies only specialty of the institution. Religious educational establishments usually have more various educational profile than just religious specialty, so add other tags of this group. To indicate the fact that institution is a part of religious education system use education_system:religious=yes. |
| education_profile:special=yes | Special needs education. Usually combined with social_facility=*. You can further specify what kind of special needs education it is adding specialty after word "special", e.g. education_profile:special_slp=yes for people with speech-language pathologies. |
Education stage
Use education_level:*=yes to specify levels of education on which institution tech its students. Different educational systems use different sets of education stages, see Proposed features/Education 2.0/Local systems.
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_level:preschool=yes | Preschool education. |
| education_level:primary=yes | Primary education. |
| education_level:secondary=yes | Secondary education. |
| education_level:higher=yes | Higher education. |
You can also additionally use isced:level=* for ISCED Classification.
Educational programs
You can specify educational programs taught in the establishment with education_programme:*=yes. You should use name of the program, not the specialty. For example, for program that trains nuclear physicists use education_programme:nuclear_physics=*, for welder education_programme:welding=*. Main difference from education_profile:*=yes is that education_programme:*=yes is a specific educational program, while education_profile:*=yes points what kind of education student can get there.
For list of programs see this page.
Languages
To tag language used for education in the institution (which is used for lectures, in textbooks etc) use education_language:*=yes with appropriate ISO 639-2 code, e.g. education_language:eng=yes for English. You can omit this tag in the case when there is only one language in the institution and it is the same as the official language of the country. You can specify language for certain programs adding a name of the program at the end of the tag, e.g. education_language:eng:pharmacy=yes for English-taught pharmacy program. Note, however, that for concrete program that teaches language itself you should use education_programme:*=yes.
Degrees
For a higher education you can specify what degree student can get in the institution. E.g for pharmacy bachelor it would be education_degree:bachelor:pharmacy=yes.
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_degree:bachelor:*=yes | Bachelor |
| education_degree:master:*=yes | Master |
| education_degree:phd:*=yes | Doctor of Philosophy |
Forms of education
education_form:*=yes specifies type of attendance of students for educational program.
| Tag | Description |
|---|---|
| education_form:fulltime:*=yes | Fulltime education. Lectures and other activities take place during day time and students usually are not supposed to combine work and education. |
| education_form:fulltime_extended:*=yes | Fulltime education with additional hours. Could be used to tag schools that provides additional afterschool hours, e.g. if parents could not get children from school on usual time. |
| education_form:parttime:*=yes | Part-time education. Lectures takes place in evening hours and during the weekends so students could combine work and education. Lecture hours are usually decreased comparing with fulltime education. |
| education_form:external:*=yes | External education. Most of education is self-education, lecture hours are minimum or absent and student attend institution only for testing and exams. |
| education_form:distance:*=yes | Distance education. Student uses online materials and tests for learning. Student attendance in school does not requred. |
E.g. fulltime education for radio engineering education_form:fulltime:radio_engineering=yes. If all education in establishment is, for example, fulltime, you can use only first and second part of the key education_form:fulltime=yes.
Education for
To indicate which groups of people could attend institution use education_for:*=yes. Main variants are shown in the table below.
| key | Description |
|---|---|
| education_for:male | males |
| education_for:female | females |
| education_for:ages | to specify age needed for admission. E.g. education_for:ages=6-8, 21-25 for enrollees of ages 6 to 8 and 21 to 25. |
| education_for:disabled | people with disabilities |
| education_for:orphan | orphans |
Other tags
- For boarding schools use education_boarding=yes.
- If male and female students are taught separately use single-gender_education=yes.
- If school has only some grades of education use education_grades=*. For example if students in school attends only 5 to 9 years of education tag institution as education_grades=5-9.
- Maximum number of students could be specified by capacity=*.
- For indicate whether education is free or not use tag education_fee=yes/no/only. "yes" means that there is charge for some education services, "no" means that all services is free of charge and "only" means that there is no free education services there.
- To indicate time while institution is open use opening_hours=*.
Examples
Here are just general examples, for more specific examples see Proposed features/Education 2.0/Local systems.
Typical kindergarten
Tags on the outline of the kindergarten territory:
amenity=kindergarten for compatibility with the old scheme
education=kindergarten main tag
education_system:de_standard=yes "de" means Germany, just for example
education_profile:general=yes kindergarten has no specialiazation
education_level:preschool=yes provides preschool education
education_for:ages=3-7 you can specify age for children to be allowed to attend, not required
Typical school
Tags on the outline of the school territory:
amenity=school for compatibility with the old scheme
education=school main tag
education_system:de_standard=yes "de" means Germany, just for example
education_profile:general=yes school has no specialization
education_level:primary=yes provides both primary education...
education_level:secondary=yes...and secondary education
education_form:fulltime=yes daytime school
education_for:ages=6-18 you can specify age for children to be allowed to attend, not required
School with chemistry specialization
Tags on the outline of the school territory:
amenity=school for compatibility with the old scheme
education=school main tag
education_system:de_standard=yes "de" means Germany, just for example
education_profile:general=yes school provides general education and specializes...
education_profile:chemistry=yes ...in chemistry
education_level:primary=yes provides both primary education...
education_level:secondary=yes...and secondary education
education_form:fulltime=yes daytime school
education_for:ages=6-18 you can specify age for children to be allowed to attend, not required
Military school
Tags on the outline of the school territory:
amenity=school for compatibility with the old scheme
education=school main tag
education_system:us_standard=yes "us" means USA, just for example
education_profile:general=yes school provides general education
education_profile:military=yes but its specialization is military training
education_level:secondary=yes provides only secondary education
education_form:fulltime=yes daytime school
boarding=yes boarding school
single_gender_education=yes with single gender education
education_for:males=yes for males only
education_for:ages=12-18 you can specify age for children to be allowed to attend, not required
Professional college
College educates carpenters and joiners
amenity=college for compatibility with the old scheme
education=college main tag
education_system:de_standard=yes "de" means Germany, just an example
education_profile:professional=yes college provides only vocational training
education_level:secondary=yes provides secondary education
education_programme:joinery=yes trains joiners
education_programme:carpentry=yes trains carpenters
education_form:fulltime=yes student can attend college fulltime
education_form:parttime=yes or combine education with work
Driving school/courses
education=courses main tag
education_system:de_standard=yes "de" means Germany, just for example
education_profile:driving=yes states that it is driving courses
education_programme:driving_licence:eu_b=yes indicates that courses provides training for "b" category of European driving license
education_form:parttime=yes students can attend courses after work
Karate Dojo
Tags on the outline of the dojo territory:
amenity=dojo for compatibility with the old scheme
education=centre main tag
education_system:karate=yes karate educational system
education_profile:martial_arts=yes martial arts education
sport=karate to indicate which martial art is used
education_programme:shotokan=yes shotokan karate style
education_service:testing=yes indicates that dojo can host rank examinations
education_grades=1-3 provides education for 1 to 3 dans
education_for:ages=16-48 you can specify age for people to be allowed to attend, not required
Applies to
Nodes or areas
Old-new tags correlation table
| Old Tag | New Tag |
|---|---|
| amenity=kindergarten | education=kindergarten |
| amenity=school | education=school if there is only one school level of education in this particular education system, in other cases tags like education=elementary_school or education=high_school could be used. |
| amenity=college | education=college if there is no other types of professional education institutions in the system. |
| amenity=university | education=university |
| amenity=music_school | If education in such school is needed to continue further music education in college or university and institution does not provide general education like ordinary school, then use education=facultative_school+education_profile:music=yes. If it is ordinary school that also teaches music as its specialty education=school+education_profile:music=yes. And at last, if it is just music education center (e.g. vocal singing training) that is not connected with some level of education (usually it means that it is one-stage education for adults), use education=centre+education_profile:music=yes or education=courses+education_profile:music=yes. |
| amenity=language_school | education=facultative_school+education_profile:foreign_language=yes for schools for children that provides only foreign language education and education=centre+education_profile:foreign_language=yes for education centers that provides foreign language education for everyone. |
| amenity=driving_school | education=centre+education_profile:driving=yes |
| amenity=dojo | education=centre+education_profile:martial_arts=yes |
Rendering
If renderer (like Mapnik) uses the same style for all educational institutions then it should use just "education" key. In more complex cases it could be advised to use following rules:
- Objects that in current system have tags amenity=kindergarten and amenity=university would be tagged (in most cases I believe) as education=kindergarten and education=university respectively.
- Objects that in current system have tag amenity=school would be more diverse but usually have school as the value's ending. So it would be something like education=*school objects.
- Objects like amenity=college would be even more diverse, so there is only education=college that would fit same style without research what values are common for professional education in certain country.
- Objects amenity=driving_schools, amenity=language_schools and amenity=music_schools would be education=centre|courses+education_profile:driving=yes, education=schools|centre|courses+education_profile:languages=yes and education=schools|centre|courses+education_profile:music=yes respectively.
Features/Pages affected
amenity=school
amenity=college
amenity=university
amenity=kindergarten
amenity=music_school
amenity=language_school
amenity=driving_school
amenity=dojo
See also
Comments
Please leave the comment on the discussion page.
Voting
I approve this proposal. --Juanblas09 (talk) 21:27, 17 July 2016 (UTC)- I approve this proposal. --Adrianojbr (talk) 14:50, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --LLlypuk82 (talk) 14:06, 17 July 2016 (UTC) I completely support the proposal.
- I approve this proposal. --Otnow (talk) 14:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --DCTrans (talk) 16:35, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --naoliv (talk) 16:52, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. While I find the education=* key reasonable per se, I don't like the idea to introduce synonyms for the amenity=* tags that sum up to more than a million occurences according to Taginfo. Applications will need to support both the "old" and the "new" tags for all times to come, and even though you didn't mention the d-word, it's obviously your intention to have the "old" tags replaced by the "new" tags sooner or later. Validators will spit out "deprecated tags" warnings, and validator users will do mass edits on objects they don't know. If it were only a 1:1 conversion (like amenity=school ⟷ education=school), there wouldn't be much danger of information damage (yet no benefit either), but there are "old" education-related tags which have no "new" equivalent at all (e.g. amenity=library), while other "old" tags translate to multiple, ambigous "new" tags: You suggest new values like education=high_school whose meaning may depend on the country, and which are redundant to proposed subtags (education:level, isced:level). Wherever there's redundancy, inconsistencies creep in. This mess is increased by the vague meanings of other main tags education=centre/courses/exercise_area/test_centre. Mappers may happen to use the education=centre tag for almost everything, particularly because the tag name is not self-explanatory. Concerning subdivisions, it's clear that we need a tagging system for them, but education=subdivision will not be the solution, as it provides neither the parent nor the hierarchy level. The operator=* cannot function as a link, firstly because it is free-text, and secondly because the hierarchy may consist of multiple levels, thus multiple levels of operators. So how can applications distinguish university subdivisions from kindergarten subdivisions? It's obvious that we need relations for this, and that a kindergarten subdivision is a kindergarten in the first place, and the subdivision details should go to attributes. So far I have only criticized the education=* main tags. What I dislike most about the subtags is the huge number of *=yes tags. Whenever there are only "yes" values, semicolon-separated lists are much more concise and therefore easier. I understand that this is a proposal by Russians, and some Russians such as XXzme have expressed their aversion to semicolon-separated values. I respect their opinion, but I have the opposite opinion, sorry. For education_system*, a value collision is unlikely anyway. E.g. Montessori and Waldorf are mutually exclusive. The same goes for education_service*: When education_service:lectures=yes is defined as "only theoretical education without practice", it cannot be tagged with "education_service:practical_training=yes" at the same time. So it does not make any sense at all to split this education_service=* key up. This subkey is strange anyway, because education is always a mix of theory and practice. Even in a library you can do exercises. The education_amenity* subkeys are just as unnecessary. Why in the world would we want to map first aid dummies? Do we map paper and pencils as well? Come on, OSM is a GIS, not an inventory list. As my text has already become too long, I refrain from commenting on the other individual subtags. One general issue is that there shouldn't be uppercase letters in the keys. All in all, this proposal looks clean and elaborate at first sight, but messes up things on many levels when you take a closer look. --Fkv (talk) 23:17, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
- I'm just curious, semicolon-separated lists is highly not recommended practice, so why you suggesting it as better one? Have you read Semi-colon value separator article? ---BushmanK (talk) 00:15, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal., for the very same reasons as Fkv gave above. In addition, it introduces specialised tags for information that is expressed with generic tags already. As we have religion=*, we do not need education_system:religious=yes since it is implicit. max_age and min_age are established and easier to parse than a specialised education_for:ages=6-12. As for kindergarten, there was just a huge discussion in the mailing lists/forum/wiki pages, which concluded that the usage and differentiation is much country-dependant and already introduced a number of specifications. As a side effect, the proposal introduces a new amenity=daycare (not used so far) for "non-educational" kindergarten, which is poorly defined since any child service educates in some form, it is just more or less formalised; and daycare is ambiguous since it could also refer to daycare of senior or handicapped people. Thing get overly complicated for the sports education as mentioned for karate dojos, this should remain in the leisure namespace. --Polarbear w (talk) 13:51, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. The proposal is too raw, e.g. education=elementary_school isn't described anywhere but in examples. It deprecates widely used tags, not trying to upgrade the old schema. Why do we need amenity=kindergarten + education=kindergarten on everything? Yes/no pattern is abused, as Fkv rightfully notices. There's a lot of uncertainty (training/practical_training, education_level vs education). Most university buildings and some schools and kindergartens will be tagged as subdivisions: why isn't it a secondary tag? To conclude, I don't see which issues this schema solves, and if it does, it's not too good to validate completely replacing the current tagging schema. If it were good, there would have been more than 20 uses already. --Zverik (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Firstly I was in favour of this proposal, but I changed my mind after read the arguments of Fkv. I think we should work on a proposal to have tags for non formal education institutions and let the already consolidated education tags untouched, so we will not have migration issues. --Wille (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --B108 (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. It's bonkers. If I was to try and create a parody "proposal" page that was overcomplicated, difficult to understand and impossible to apply in practice this would be it. --SomeoneElse (talk) 11:53, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. It wasn't easy to make a choice, when seeing the energy spent to make things clear. As said here and on @tagging, this proposal doesn't sound to be mature. You need to refine the keys with yes values by grouping them and give more verbose values. My vote would rather be yes on the idea but some work have to be done before :) Fanfouer (talk) 22:15, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --FreeExec (talk) 07:25, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --RiG's (talk)
- I approve this proposal. --Ullus (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I agree with the reasons presented by Fkv --GOwin (talk) 04:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. For all the reasons presented above. --BCNorwich (talk) 05:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Hufgardm (talk) 05:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I think it makes mapping inpredictable. 5 users, 5 different mappings, too much confusion. --Robybully (talk) 08:41, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I agree with the reasons presented by Fkv User 5359 (talk) 07:00, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. While I appreciate the effort and the detail this needs tagging practice. I also have the feeling that there is quite some overlap of the subtags. The idea that a core tag like amenity=school will be superseded by a tag with the same meaning has been proven wrong by reality over and over. IMHO the education=* should extend the existing tags.--Jojo4u (talk)
- I approve this proposal. --Hike39 (talk) 08:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Marcioaguiar (talk) 13:17, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Quark21 (talk) 14:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I agree with Jojo4u and Fanfouer it's a good idea but it needs some development --Alejandroscf (talk) 15:51, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I also don't see a point in moving tags from amenity to education. I agree that there are missing standardized ways in the current system, but this proposal doesn't fix it for me. I'd rather like to see additional tags formalized to add country specific (sub-)types of schools. The education_level tag does not add any benefit (detail) compared to the established isced:level. Also the descriptions are not generic and not suitable for a global description of schools, e.g. in Germany schools range from 6 to 19 (age), not from 7 to 18. There is just one top level tag for school, while in many countries it would surely be desirable to have more values already at this first level (e.g. in Germany I'd want to tag at least Grundschule, Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium, Gesamtschule at the same level than "kindergarten" or "university"). "courses", "centre", "laboratory", "exercise_grounds" don't seem to fit with the other classes (and are not descriptive terms which seem to me easy to understand). I could go on but I think it is not useful at this time, much has already been written, I suggest you break this up into smaller packages and go through the development of each on tagging-ml to improve the systematics and to make it more suitable on a global level (there's input from people all over the world needed). --Dieterdreist (talk) 17:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --De vries (talk) 07:07, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Education facilities are clear class of objects, unlike "amenities", where everything is mixed together. Having a separate key for education facilities allows to select them all without using full list of values. It is better both for data architecture and data processing performance. Nobody forces anybody to stop using their beloved old tags or to use every feature of this new scheme. Those who don't understand new scheme can still pretend like it doesn't exist. But even using some of these new tags will actually improve data consistency and structure. --BushmanK (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
- Stop accusing the opposers of not understanding the proposal. Its problem lies exactly in the ambiguity of "old tags should remain" and providing a "Old-new tags correlation table" as encouragement for replacements, which will lead to edit wars. It fails to provide a clear refinement hierarchy, such as *=school, school=primary; instead it keeps the refinement on the same level with education=school -> education=elementary_school. --Polarbear w (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
- This proposal does not say anything about deprecation of old tags - this word was used only by those who opposed it. If you don't know what "correlation" is, I'll explain it. It means "connection", and it obviously has nothing to do with "replacement". So, yes, you don't understand it and you're making implications based on nothing. Instead of voting against it, wouldn't it be more productive to ask for clarification on Discussion page, which is intended for it? ---BushmanK (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Grand, with your superior analytical capabilities, you have discovered another inconsistency in the proposal. While it says "correlation table" in the heading, it provides an old-new replacement table in the content. I.e., it does not say, "let us add the new tags for refinement to a current one", it clearly wants, in the long run, make the "old one ... obsolete", while avoiding a clear migration plan. That will lead to chaos. As for your second question, we are in the voting phase now, what do you mean with "instead of voting"? New proposals can come afterwards. I already commented in favour of using established detail tags, such as religion=*, max/min_age, etc. BTW, how does education_for:orphan differ from non-orphans in the same age group? --Polarbear w (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- You still continue to pick on invisible details of semantics to find the way to support your initial impression. Wording might be not super-polished here (keep in mind, that author is not a native English speaker), but even approved Wiki pages can undergo edits many times after approval of general framework. I can explicitly tell you, that author doesn't propose re-tagging right away, I know it from what he clearly said in discussion in Russian community forum (unfortunately, he didn't explain it clearly here). And coexistence of two schemes doesn't lead to any chaos if they don't contradict each other, like in case of using same keys. (If it ever did, I'd appreciate if you'd mention some precedent.) Certain unclear things, not changing the general idea of proposal, can be fixed even during voting process. Regarding of religion key, which you proposing, it can be used with only one value (semicolon-delimited lists are strongly not recommended practice), but there might be an institution, where several denominations coexist (by the way, it could even happen in case of places of worship). Education for orphans can include additional classes/training, intended for better social adaptation and rehabilitation, if you are curious. So, none of your concerns seem to have "stopping" nature - certain things just have to be polished and wording should be changed a bit in favor or easier one to understand. ---BushmanK (talk) 17:09, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yes I do because experience has shown that exactly these hidden details will lead to edit wars later on. And, you cannot model the whole world in a key:*=yes ontology, that ridicules the key=value scheme in OSM. So, let's fold the proposal and start working on 2.1 And I am not proposing the religion=* key, it is used 812475 times already.
- So, you refusing to give even anecdotal evidence in favor of making statements like: "it will..." (why?), "it can not..." (again, why exactly? is there any relevant precedent?). religion key is in use, but it can not be used to tag multiple denominations without semicolon-delimited lists. Re-using keys, which obviously can not tag certain situations doesn't make any sense. It seems like I have to repeat the same logic for the second time, which means you refuse to take it in account and I don't see any sense in repeating it for the third time. ---BushmanK (talk) 18:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yes I do because experience has shown that exactly these hidden details will lead to edit wars later on. And, you cannot model the whole world in a key:*=yes ontology, that ridicules the key=value scheme in OSM. So, let's fold the proposal and start working on 2.1 And I am not proposing the religion=* key, it is used 812475 times already.
- You still continue to pick on invisible details of semantics to find the way to support your initial impression. Wording might be not super-polished here (keep in mind, that author is not a native English speaker), but even approved Wiki pages can undergo edits many times after approval of general framework. I can explicitly tell you, that author doesn't propose re-tagging right away, I know it from what he clearly said in discussion in Russian community forum (unfortunately, he didn't explain it clearly here). And coexistence of two schemes doesn't lead to any chaos if they don't contradict each other, like in case of using same keys. (If it ever did, I'd appreciate if you'd mention some precedent.) Certain unclear things, not changing the general idea of proposal, can be fixed even during voting process. Regarding of religion key, which you proposing, it can be used with only one value (semicolon-delimited lists are strongly not recommended practice), but there might be an institution, where several denominations coexist (by the way, it could even happen in case of places of worship). Education for orphans can include additional classes/training, intended for better social adaptation and rehabilitation, if you are curious. So, none of your concerns seem to have "stopping" nature - certain things just have to be polished and wording should be changed a bit in favor or easier one to understand. ---BushmanK (talk) 17:09, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Grand, with your superior analytical capabilities, you have discovered another inconsistency in the proposal. While it says "correlation table" in the heading, it provides an old-new replacement table in the content. I.e., it does not say, "let us add the new tags for refinement to a current one", it clearly wants, in the long run, make the "old one ... obsolete", while avoiding a clear migration plan. That will lead to chaos. As for your second question, we are in the voting phase now, what do you mean with "instead of voting"? New proposals can come afterwards. I already commented in favour of using established detail tags, such as religion=*, max/min_age, etc. BTW, how does education_for:orphan differ from non-orphans in the same age group? --Polarbear w (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- This proposal does not say anything about deprecation of old tags - this word was used only by those who opposed it. If you don't know what "correlation" is, I'll explain it. It means "connection", and it obviously has nothing to do with "replacement". So, yes, you don't understand it and you're making implications based on nothing. Instead of voting against it, wouldn't it be more productive to ask for clarification on Discussion page, which is intended for it? ---BushmanK (talk) 00:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Stop accusing the opposers of not understanding the proposal. Its problem lies exactly in the ambiguity of "old tags should remain" and providing a "Old-new tags correlation table" as encouragement for replacements, which will lead to edit wars. It fails to provide a clear refinement hierarchy, such as *=school, school=primary; instead it keeps the refinement on the same level with education=school -> education=elementary_school. --Polarbear w (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I am in favour of the idea, but think it would need another round of refinement before such a complicated proposal is ready. --Species 22:12, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
- Would you be so kind to provide constructive feedback on what exactly you didn't like and/or what specifically you'd like to see improved? ---BushmanK (talk) 00:15, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- The sheer amount of discussion inside the voting shows that there are a lot of questions left open… see the comments of the previous posters. Other minor glitches I spotted are:
- • please be consistent with lower/uppercase on language code (:DE vs :de).
- • In a such detailed proposal, I'm missing specific tags for university institutes and faculties. -- Species 10:34, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- Would you be so kind to provide constructive feedback on what exactly you didn't like and/or what specifically you'd like to see improved? ---BushmanK (talk) 00:15, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Surly (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Aurimas (talk) 12:31, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. -- An improvement over what presently exists. Warin61 (talk) 07:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. -- The proposal has not changed since my initial comments on the tagging mailing list: I still fail to see how amenity=driving_school is easily mapped and searched for in a navigation app, if all we have are bits of yes/no tags. Escada (talk) 09:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. see reasons from Fkv and Dieterdreist --Klumbumbus (talk) 09:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --Paulest too comlicated for simple schools 27 July 206
- I oppose this proposal. -- good idea but it need improvement Lucadelu 9:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --Ralley66 (talk) 09:53, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. see reasons from Fkv and Dieterdreist --corfede 10:28, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Replacing a often used top-level tag like amenity=school by almost a dozen of tags education=school/kindergarten/high_school/elementary_school/college/university/courses/centre/laboratory/exercise_area is a bad idea. It puts unnecessary work on all data consumers. In addition, a top-level tag should be free of country-specific definitions (the distinction between elementary school and high school is an example – other countries have different types of schools).
- This proposal introduces the usage of ISO 639-2 language codes even if a ISO 639-1 code exists. This differs from the normal way we handle languages at OSM – we use short codes where available. Your decision will lead to confusion among mappers (some might tag education_language:en=yes instead of education_language:eng=yes).
- I think that the number of keys introduced by your proposal is too high. Although list as tag values should be avoided, it might be better to use a list to tag all the teaching languages instead of having keys for it. Example: education_languages=en instead of education_language:eng=yes
- In addition, your proposal defines variable key names, e.g.
education_system:ISO-3166_standard=yes. This is a bad design. Most data consumers user database systems with predefined keys.
- I agree with the arguments provided by User:Polarbear_w, User:Zverik, User:Dieterdreist.
- I myself think that OSM is not the best place to store the detailed teaching programme of a school (e.g. if French is teached as second foreign language or as both second and third foreign language, if Latin is teached from class 5 to 12/13 or from class 7 to 12/13 or both of these to variants). Such data could be better stored at Wikidata and linked using Tag:wikidata. --Nakaner (talk) 10:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I think that proposal need more improvement --damjang (talk) 11:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. There are some good ideas here but the proposal is trying to do too much at once. Introduce a simple education tag first and when that is firm on the ground, then you can add additional things like what age group is something for or do they have a medical dummy yes/no. Don't try to add tags for all eventualities at once - this isn't OSM style. As this proposal stands, I cannot agree to an education tag without at the same time agreeing to mapping details about the exact material available at some niche education facility, or wheter the kindergarden admits three-year-olds or only four-year-olds. I don't want to see that level of detail in OSM because it can never be kept current and I don't want to agree to a proposal that gives people the impression it would be a good idea to map them. --Frederik Ramm (talk)
- I oppose this proposal. --Aury88 (talk) 12:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Protoxenus (talk) 13:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --Waldhans (talk) 13:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. see reasons from Fkv and Dieterdreist --streckenkundler (talk) 16:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --RoGer6 (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. ---fri- (talk) 16:26, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. religion, max age keys are problems imo --Zuse (talk) 17:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. For the reasons given by Fkv, Dieterdreist, Frederik Ramm and others. --geow (talk) 18:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Trys to solve to many aspects - little inconsistencies - e.g. dont put language/country of standard into key - should be in the value etc. This needs to be rethought and be simpler in smaller steps. --Flohoff (talk) 19:13, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. same reason as Fkv -- battarsa (talk) 07:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. while well-intentioned the proposal doesn't actually acheive what it set out to do and makes things more complicated for data consumers by creating an explosion in key space. Further some of the definitions (for example kindergarten) are system-specific (case at hand that a kindergarten provides full-day service allowing the parents to go working) and would need re-doing for a final version. I would suggest stopping the voting process and refining the proposal before resubmiting. SimonPoole (talk) 07:50, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Matteo Zaffo '80 (talk) 11:09, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I share most of the reasons with User:Dieterdreist --Village (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Because the proposal aims/expect to make existing tags obsolete and the proposal has little/very-poor reference to existing use(accepted and defacto tags). --LastGrape/Gregory 12:09, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. --Fredao (talk) fredao 19:20, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal.I agree with SimonPoole: "I would suggest stopping the voting process and refining the proposal before resubmiting" --AgusQui (talk) 13:58, 30 July 2016 (UTC)- I oppose this proposal. A multitude of reasons, all of which have been mentioned above. --TOGA (talk) 23:57, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Voting on this proposal has been closed.
It was rejected with 20 votes for, 38 votes against and 1 abstention.