Proposal:Payment denominations
| Payment denominations | |
|---|---|
| Proposal status: | Approved (active) |
| Proposed by: | Discostu36 |
| Applies to: |  ,  ,  , 
|
| Definition: | Tagging of the coins and notes that are accepted at a feature |
| Draft started: | 2022-09-20 |
| RFC start: | 2022-09-24 |
| Vote start: | 2022-10-09 |
| Vote end: | 2022-10-23 |
Proposal
I am proposing tags for adding information about the denominations of coins and banknotes that are accepted at a feature. For example, a vending machine might only accept 50 cent, €1 and €2 coins. Or a gas station might not accept €200 and €500 banknotes.
The tags that should be used are payment:coins:denominations=* and payment:notes:denominations=*.
For shops and amenities, the tag should only be used for features that don't accept all denominations. Vending machines and similar features should always be tagged, as they usually don't accept all denominations.
Rationale
I believe this to be important data. It is only of limited help to know that a parking ticket machine accepts coins if the users don't know if the specific denominations in their possession are accepted.
"Denominations" is the correct English term for different values that coins and notes can have. I know that this is a hard word for non-native speakers and that the key is quite long, but I think a word like "values" would not be precise enough.
I want to propose a tag that fits well into established tagging schemes. This is why I chose payment:coins/notes:denominations as a key. It is additional information for features that are already tagged with the popular keys payment:coins=*, payment:notes=* or payment:cash=*.
For the same reason, I have decided the value to be formatted the same way as in the charge=* tag: The denomination followed by a space and the three-letter code for the currency. It also has the advantage of being well-fitted for features that accept money in multiple currencies, but not all denominations. I have decided against using sub-keys like suggested at Key:payment#Currencies (resulting in payment:coins:EUR:denominations=*) because they would make the key even longer and make it harder for data consumers to use the data. This tagging scheme is also not commonly used.
I have decided against proposing payment:cash:denominations=* because some currencies have the same denomination as coins and notes, but features might only accept one of them. For example, a parking ticket machine might accept $1 coins but not $1 notes. Tagging payment:cash:denominations=1 USD would be ambiguous.
I have decided against all as a possible value because of the likelihood of tagging mistakes. It would also include commemorative coins with denominations that are usually only paid with in notes and are never accepted by vending machines.
Tags in use I have decided against
There are already some other undocumented and or uncommon ways of collecting this information:
| Tagging in use | Comment |
|---|---|
| The coins / notes acceptance proposal is mainly aimed at ATMs. It also mentions vending machines but I don't think it is suited for them as cash_in=* is only documented and commonly used for ATMs.Therefore I don't think the proposals overlap, the two tagging schemes could be used in paralell if he proposal wasn't abandoned and/or the tags were in use. | |
| The payment tagging scheme is only documented for values yes/no/only and I don't think this should be changed, as coins and notes would be the only payment method with other values. | |
| I don't think this is a good key as it introduces a new namespace that it is the only key for. | |
| I think this is too specific as it only can be used for the maximum denomination of notes, but not for other restrictions like minimum coin denomination. | |
| I don't think a subkey for each denomination should be added. |
Tagging
Keys
- payment:coins:denominations=*: Denominations of coins that are accepted at this place
- payment:notes:denominations=*: Denominations of notes that are accepted at this place
Values
- <denomination> <currency>;<denomination> <currency>;...
Formatting
- Denominations smaller than the basic monetary unit are formatted with a decimal dot (e.g.
0.20) - Denomination and currency are separated by a space
- Currencies are specified using their three letter
ISO 4217 code. - Multiple denomination/currency pairs are separated by a semicolon.
- They are sorted in ascending value
- They are grouped by currency
- Currencies are ordered alphabetically
Examples
| Image | Proposed tagging |
|---|---|
|
payment:coins=yes
payment:coins:denominations=0.05 EUR;0.10 EUR;0.20 EUR;0.50 EUR;1 EUR;2 EUR |
 |
payment:coins=yes
payment:coins:denominations=100 JPY;500 JPY payment:notes=yes payment:notes:denominations=1000 JPY |
|
payment:notes=yes
payment:notes:denominations=5 EUR;10 EUR;20 EUR;50 EUR;100 EUR |
Features/Pages affected
The new tagging would be mentioned on payment=* and on amenity=vending_machine and related pages.
External discussions
Comments
Please comment on the discussion page.
Voting
Voting on this proposal has been closed.
It was approved with 21 votes for, 4 votes against and 2 abstentions.
I approve this proposal. --SafetyIng (talk) 20:07, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. I still prefer cash:*=* and cash_out:*=*. --- Kovposch (talk) 20:18, 9 October 2022 (UTC)- I approve this proposal. Sdicke (talk) 22:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. -- Something B (talk) 22:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
- I have comments but abstain from voting on this proposal. Is there a way to indicate the change given in this scheme? There is somewhat of a novelty in my city where there are more dollar coins in circulation than most of the US because the machines give them as change here. --Bgo eiu (talk) 01:00, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I have decided against making change part of this proposal because it is less important, usually not signed and therefore hard to verify, and not consistent because, for example, there might be a lack of coins and small notes on days where many people pay with high denominations. -- Discostu36 (talk) 07:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Very good idea --Wetterauer (talk) 05:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Rtnf (talk) 06:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 08:25, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
I oppose this proposal. Accepting a particular coin or banknote is among short-living business policies that can change frequently and is often harder to observe than e.g. opening_hours. Thus they are difficult to maintain and likely to be outdated. In my opinion, they should not be in the OSM database in general. --Polarbear w (talk) 08:50, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Mashin (talk) 09:41, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I'm a little uncomfortable with the way the type of currency is repeated for each denomination in the value: "0.05 EUR;0.10 EUR;0.20 EUR;0.50 EUR;1 EUR;2 EUR". It seems to make the value prone to error and a lot harder to parse/verify by eye. I also note that the payment=* tag has brand specific credit cards in the tag name, rather than using the value field. I'd prefer a tagging scheme that looks like: payment:coins:EUR=* or payment:notes:USD=* and values such as 0.05;0.10;0.20;0.50;1;2. This scheme would allow for easier validation (do the values contain a letter/symbol, for example) and also make it easier to identify incorrect denominations (ie, 0.03 is not a valid value for currency). It also is similar to the pattern established by language codes and other country specific designations. Diacritic (talk) 10:49, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Diacritic: did you raise your concerns during the RFC stage of the proposal? I can't find any comments by you on the wiki, in the mailing list or in the forum; but I may have missed that. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 12:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I mentioned the same format. --- Kovposch (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Martianfreeloader:. Unfortunately I didn’t look into this proposal earlier; this only got my attention because I looked at the “Voting” status while voting elsewhere.
- Ideally, I would have liked to give this feedback early rather than simply voting “no”, but I agreed with what Kovposch brought up and felt comfortable with the vote. Diacritic (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, not ideal for the author, but of course legitimate. I'm just a bit concerned that there is currently some frustration accumulating in people who're trying to improve OSM by writing good proposals. (Unfortunately, I'm guilty of similar behaviour myself...) --Martianfreeloader (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I sympathise entirely; I've got a few proposals I'm trying to put together and it's hard and often unrewarding work. Personally, I think that proposal authors would benefit from higher visibility of their drafts, as emails are often ignored, but that's a conversation for elsewhere. :) Diacritic (talk) 10:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, not ideal for the author, but of course legitimate. I'm just a bit concerned that there is currently some frustration accumulating in people who're trying to improve OSM by writing good proposals. (Unfortunately, I'm guilty of similar behaviour myself...) --Martianfreeloader (talk) 20:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I mentioned the same format. --- Kovposch (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- note that this repetition is needed in cases where multiple currencies are used in given machine (or even in given area)Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 10:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- Good point @Mateusz Konieczny:, although I would prefer to have to separate keys (payment:coins:EUR=* and payment:coins:GBP=*, or whatever) for those situations. That does have its own drawbacks, and clearly most favour the structure proposed here. Diacritic (talk) 10:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Diacritic: did you raise your concerns during the RFC stage of the proposal? I can't find any comments by you on the wiki, in the mailing list or in the forum; but I may have missed that. --Martianfreeloader (talk) 12:06, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Ravlop (talk) 11:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Good and flexible extension. --Fabi2 (talk) 12:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --OSMRogerWilco (talk) 12:36, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Un1matr1x (talk) 14:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. Thank you for this well-written proposal, but I disagree with some of the points:
- the key that could have been included in payment:coins=* payment:notes=* (the value only is already resolved with the already documented tag payment:others=no)
- the obligation to inform the main currency of a country whereas the presence of only one value in all the euro zone would obviously concern the euro and it is the same for probably many countries (to my knowledge there are not many countries which like Switzerland have devices accepting massively a non national currency, it is rather the exception) Marc marc (talk) 14:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. All right for vending machines, but I'd not use this for anything else, as this could change by the day. --Emilius123 (talk) 20:07, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --501ghost (talk) 09:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Though I am really dubious about value of tagging this. Maybe for vending machines, but even there I am not convinced that tagging such detail is really useful --Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 10:26, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Like always, there are several ways how such a tag could look like. The one chosen here is simple to use and self-consistent --Mueschel (talk) 17:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Jmarchon (talk) 23:51, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --scai (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. --Renecha (talk) 20:57, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
- I approve this proposal. Coolawik (talk) 15:35, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- I oppose this proposal. I think this information (accepted denominations) should not be in OSM. Difficult to maintain, and what's the use-case? Someone with a smartphone searching OsmAnd for a vending machine that accepts a 100 € bill? Why is it important if a place accepts 10 cents coins - don't most business and vending machines? Would anybody look into their wallet, count coins and bills and seearch for a place to spend them - even without knowing the prices? This makes no sense to me and this tag is too much information --Freetz (talk) 05:57, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- This information is already in OSM, see the tags that are currently in use mentioned above. Your "no" vote will only influence how this information is tagged, with the schema proposed here or with multiple undocumented tags like it is currently the case. -- Discostu36 (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Where are denominations tagged already? --Freetz (talk) 20:01, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Rationale of this proposal is wrong. coin:type=* is not in use for payment denominations. It is exclusively used for the sacrificial coin in a amenity=vending_machine + vending=elongated_coin. Freetz (talk) 03:35, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
- Where are denominations tagged already? --Freetz (talk) 20:01, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- This information is already in OSM, see the tags that are currently in use mentioned above. Your "no" vote will only influence how this information is tagged, with the schema proposed here or with multiple undocumented tags like it is currently the case. -- Discostu36 (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)