Talk:Finland

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Highways

We should probably move the highway status tables to their own pages ?

Types

Should we mark E roads as trunks or motorways, not primaries. This would be in line with the colouring of http://www.tiehallinto.fi/servlet/page?_pageid=74&_dad=julia&_schema=PORTAL30&menu=5144&_pageid=74&kieli=fi&linkki=8052&julkaisu=3209 --LH 12:07, 20 August 2007 (BST)

But that is a rendering issue, an E road is just a Valtatie with an int_ref. It would perhaps make more sense to use trunk for all Valtaties (1-39) and primary for Kantatie. --Onion 00:18, 29 August 2007 (BST)

I agree. --LH 10:23, 31 August 2007 (BST)

Ok, let's start fixing this then, if it's ok with everyone else. --Onion 08:30, 1 September 2007 (BST)

Marking roads 1-39 as trunks inside city of their all way dont make sense. It can be that those streets inside city have a speedlimit od 40 km per hour and only one lane. Then as marked to be as trunk, it compares it to some Kehä3 of Helsinki, which has separate carriage ways and speed partly as double. In my opinion even roads 1-39 inside city area should be marked as primary from part where is speedlimit 50 or less and no separate carriage ways. --Teema 25 January 2010

We tag the highways always by their type (Vt, Kt, etc) and use other tags to specify specific attributes for speed limits, lanes, etc. This has been discussed and decided a long time ago already so don't go and change stuff just because you think it should be some other way. --Onion 09:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

(Eiköhän tässä ole osalliset nykyään Suomesta..) Trunk-sääntö taajamiin lisättiin vain siksi että Helsingin Kehätiet ja Itäväylä eivät kaksiajorataisilta osuuksiltaan poikkea mitenkään (liikenteellisesti, rakenteellisesti) säteittäisistä valtateistä, mutta niitä oli aiemmin siirrelty useamman kerran edestakaisin, jopa "pääsäännön" mukaisiksi secondary-teiksi. Voisihan ne olla primaryitakin, joiksi ne olisi alkuperäisillä taajamaohjeilla voinut luokitella, mutta ircissä keskustellessa silloin päädyttiin että ne vastaavat enemmän viereisiä trunkeja kuin lähistön primary-teitä (esim. Mannerheimintie joka ei ole vielä valtatie kolmea), kun highway-tagilla on hierarkiajärjestys. Muualla esim. nelostie kulkee Kärsämäen läpi ja on kilometrin tai enemmänkin 40 km/h aluetta, yksiajoratainen ja kiertoliittymillä, eikä kukaan toivottavasti ajattele että sen lyhyen pätkän pitäisi olla muuta kuin trunk. Jos nykyisen ohjeen mukainen "suuremman kaupungin" raja vedetään Turun väkiluvun yläpuolelle, niin mikään ei pari vuotta sitten vakiintuneesta luokittelusta muutu; ainoat ei-valtatiet trunkeina on kaksiajorataiset osat kehäteistä ja Itäväylästä sekä Tampereella Hervannan valtaväylästä - ohjeen olisi voinut kirjoittaa niinkin alunperin eikä yrittää yleistää perusteluja. Ja "Turun taajama-trunkit" joista tämä lähti on kuitenkin pisimmilläänkin vain reilu 2 km, vertaa Kärsämäki-esimerkki.

Joka tapauksessa, vaikka kannustamme kaikkia lisäämään ja yrittämään niin kartoituksessa edistyneemmillä paikkakunnilla kannattaa katsoa teiden historiatietoja (kuinka kauan on luokitus ollut nykyinen), kysyä ircissä (#osm.fi IRCNet), forumin Suomi-osastolla tai talk-fi -listalla ennen kuin alkaa "palauttaa taajama-ohjeiden mukaisiksi" suurta määrää teitä, kuten tapahtuu ehkä kerran vuodessa. Alv 11:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Valtatie 12 in Rauma

It is funny, but all big internet maps show different ways, and they all seem to be wrong.

• map24 Porintie - Tallikedonkatu - Nortamonkatu, ends on the Eteläkatu crossing
• google Porintie - Karjalankatu - Seminarinkatu - Vähämaanpuisto, ends on the Aittakarinkatu crossing
• msn Porintie - Nortamonkatu, ends on the Aittakarinkatu crossing

But in my opinion it should be Porintie - Luoteisväylä - Satamakatu - Vähämaanpuisto, ends where? How can I find it out? Because there is no sign on the street "here you enter Valtatie 12" :) --Plenz 14:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• Use the location where you see the first time a sign with a non-dashed 12. That's how I've figured where 8 starts here in Turku (in a pretty strange place) --Onion 10:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that was a good advice. Hereby I declare valtatie 12 finished. --Plenz 20:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Seututie 170

On Christmas I will drive Rauma - Lahti - Kotka - Helsinki. I could track Seututie 170 which is in the list with only 45% but I can not see in the map what is missing. Maybe the list is not up to date? --Plenz 21:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that seututie 170 is missing just a short part between junction of VT15 and Hamina. Take the highway and turn off to Pernaja for a cup of coffee instead ;)

--JRA 12:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Pernaja is not in the OSM map. Otherwise I would understand you so that you live there and invite me... or what? --Plenz 19:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I was just trying to find some alternative route for you. But actually, between Kotka and Helsinki there really does not seem to be other reasonable routes in addition to already mapped roads number 7 and 170.

I try to update the stats when I see something complete or progressing.. but that should be done by whoever is doing the editing, some do, some don't. --Onion 09:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Sandroads

Hey there. How to tag those millions of sandroads, connecting the tiny villages all over the country and having no official number? Shell I use highway=track + surface=unpaved + tracktype=* or highway=unclassified + surface=unpaved? --Cali42 08:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Some cases are ambiguous, but some criteria for distinguishing them (without a road number -sign) could be:

• unclassified: any of:
  • If they really connect two villages (could even be a tertiary)
  • They have a name sign - they likely have official numbers, too, but those just aren't signposted.
  • have been improved/reconstructed in recent years (signs of digging beside the road visible) - worth keeping in navigable condition for all cars
  • Two lanes (could be only one, too)
• track:
  • seem to lead nowhere and not maintained
  • lead only into a farm field
  • mainly used by timber trucks to collect cut down wood
  • or lead to a single farm / house / cottage and don't have a name sign (could be a highway=service if in good condition)

As a road can have attributes from both of these lists, it's not always possible to give a definite answer as to which is "correct". I just now came up with these on basis of what I've seen to date and what appears reasonable, so feel free to object. Alv 09:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

That is in deed a proper distinction you give here. Thank you! --Cali42 10:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Digiroad

I added some discussion about digiroad.fi to the Potential Datasources page. --Tml 12:11, 13 August 2007 (BST)

Yeah, but it's not free. --Onion 15:39, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Exactly, which is why it is a potential data source, in the hope it could be enough freed to use here. --Tml 18:34, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Places

I don't think there's much sense in differentiating between cities (kaupunki) and municipalities (kunta) as city status nowadays has nothing to do with the size of the place. In reality many municipalities are larger than many smaller cities. So I propose to use place=town for smaller cities and most municipalities. Municipalities that cover a geographically small area and have a very low population (well below 10000) might be tagged as villages.
Tsok 17:40, 5 July 2007 (BST)

GNS Data

The list of the largest cities/towns has been imported. Most likely it needs some cleanup and location checking. --Onion 09:45, 29 June 2007 (BST)

I noticed... I'd be very careful importing anything that is in the public domain (such as US government data) without systematically going through the data, due to data quality issues. No data is often better than erroneus data. Many places are not where they should be and there are some fictional towns as well. And then there's the issue of duplicates with existing data, currently I'm seeing two copies of Vantaa, Espoo and Kauniainen, for example.
Tsok 17:40, 5 July 2007 (BST)

POI tiedot

Voisi olla hyvä, jos POI tietojen lisäämiseen luvan pyytämiseen olisi hyvä ja selkeä viestipohja. Viestistä tulisi käydä ilmi mikä OSM on ja miksi pyydämme lupaa käyttää kontaktoidun tahon tietoja (tekijänoikeus). Samoin ehkä olisi hyvä jos jotenkin tulisi ilmi, ettei luvan antaminen sido mihinkään. Oheeseen laitan oman kirjoitelmani, jonka ajattelin lähettää St1:lle, markkinoinista vastaavalle taholle. Muokatkaa ja parantakaa..

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Hei,

Viestini koskee sivuiltanne löytyviä asemien paikkatietoja eri navigaattoreille.

Olen yksi monista OpenStreetMap-yhteisön jäsenistä, jotka osallistuvat OpenStreetMap-karttatietojen keräämiseen. OpenStreetMap (OSM) toimii samalla periaatteella kuin Wikipedia: kuka tahansa voi muokata, lisätä ja poistaa sen tietoja. Tavoitteena on kaikille avoin ja ilmainen kartta-aineisto. Kaikki kartan tiedot on lisensoitu Creative Commons Nimeä-Tarttuva 2.0 -lisenssillä. Tästä johtuen kaikkiin karttaan lisättäviin asioihin on oltava niiden tekijänoikeuksien haltijan lupa. Yhteisön jäsenet antavat luvan keräämiensä tietojen käyttöön, mutta samasta syystä kirjoitan tätä viestiä teille: Teidän sivuiltanne löytyvä tiedosto, jossa on huoltoasemienne sijaintitiedot, kuuluu luettelosuojan piiriin, emmekä voi jakaa em. sijaintitietoja osana OSM aineistoa ilman teidän lupaa.

Mistä viime kädessä on kysymys? Jos saamme teiltä luvan, lisäämme tiedot OSM-tietokantaan ja kaikki käyttäjät pääsevät hyötymään siitä, että kaikki Suomen St1-asemat löytyvät kartalta/karttatiedoista. Jos emme saa lupaa, St1-asemien löytyminen OSM-kartalta on täysin riippuvainen siitä, kuinka moni käyttäjä itse toteaa yksittäisten St1-asemien sijainteja ja lisää niitä OSM-karttaan. Jälkimmäisessä vaihtoehdossa kartalta ei siis löydy kuin osa Suomen St1-asemista.

Referenssinä mainittakoon, että esimerkiksi Hesburger on antanut luvan ravintoloidensa sijaintitietotiedoston käyttöön ja OSM-kartasta löytyykin kaikki Hesburgerit, mutta tuskin esimerkiksi kaikkia Suomen McDonaldseja.

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--Japa-fi 09:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Coastlines

Are the coastlines now ready or not? They are all visible in the map, but I can not load them into JOSM. I only get the coastlines of some lakes. --Plenz 04:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Coastlines are taken from external source for Mapnik rendering. There are also manually digitized coastlines for example in Helsinki. Mapnik does not utilise those, but Osmarender does. That's unsatisfactory situation, for example island Tammisalo in Helsinki is always missing the coastline in Mapnik maps. JRA 8 November 2007

Lakes

I'm adding lakes, mainly those that are near roads I've driven, from landsat images from time to time when I'm bored. --Onion 10:01, 29 June 2007 (BST)

OSM data in GIS

OSM data imported into PostGIS database with "osm2pgsql" utility and read into OpenJUMP program in vector format with its native PostGIS connector. OpenJUMP supports SQL filters which makes it simple to create layers like "data from osm_line where highway='residential'" or "data from osm_point where amenity='restaurant' and is_in='Helsinki, Finland'"

OSM data vs. Vmap0

Image is showing the OSM highways (green) and generalised Vmap0 roads (red) in February 11th, 2008.

Maps in Wikipedia

I'm trying to improve the articles about Finland in the Swedish Wikipedia, and have added OSM maps for the water of greater Helsinki and east central Helsinki. See also Talk:Helsinki on the Finnish Wikipedia. Another useful Wikipedia map was Karjaanjoki, based on the Demis map server. In all cases I had to add text and numbers using GIMP. We should think about how such maps can be produced more easily. Helping Wikipedia is a great goal for OSM and also a good way to promote OSM. --LA2 08:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Traffic cameras

Well, too bad we didn't get permission.. but as these are mostly on roads with a lot of traffic it should not take that long to get them ourselves. --Onion 09:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Motorcar:destination

When added to highway:cycleway as suggested on WikiProjectFinland, it is rendered as cycleway. This might be bit confusing when looking a map and there's no obvious route to a house (for car or other motor vehicles).--manuska 18:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The example picture is of an uncommon situation - even more so since the pedestrian and bicycle signs in the picture are not of the mandatory round type, but of the square informative kind. A normal road with the "moottoriajoneuvoilta ajo kielletty + tontille ajo sallittu" is still a highway=residential + motorcar=destination. If the road was a signed cycleway ("yhdistetty kevyen liikenteen väylä") with "tontille ajo sallittu" it's still better drawn as a cycleway - routers can use guide cars to a destination along it and any "printed map" user plans his trip as if it were possible to drive only to the start of the cycleway. I'll try to find a better picture, but please do add a better one if you have any. Alv 22:03, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Moottorikäyttöisellä ajoneuvolla ajo kielletty

Nykyisissä ohjeissa ohjeistetaan kartoittamaan tiet joilla ei saa ajaa moottoriajoneuvolla pyöräteiksi (highway=cycleway). Sehän on sikäli harhaanjohtavaa, että tie ja pyörätie ovat eri asiat, niillä pätee erilaiset väistämissäännöt, kieltokylttiä voi lieventää erilaisin lisäkilvin jne. Onkohan tuota asiaa puitu missään vaiheessa tarkemmin? Olisiko syytä pyhittää cycleway pyöräteille, vai käyttää sitä kevyen liikenteen väylistä yleisesti? Toisaalta väistämissääntöjä ei katsota kartasta, ja toisaalta esim. paikallisessa opaskartassa (JKL) nuo on näköjään rinnastettu. Navigointisofta ei asiasta varmaankaan välitä, mutta printtikartasta tageja ei yleensä näe. Olisiko highway=service asiallinen ainakin silloin kun moottoriliikenne on jossain muodossa sallittu? --Jesh 00:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Osin puutteellisten esimerkkikuvien vika ja ohjeet muiden (=service ja =residential) on ripoteltu eri kohtiin; kirjoitin vähän lisää auki ohjesivulle. Paikoin tällaisten teiden varsilla on käytetty liikennemerkkejä

1. "moottoriliikenne kielletty + tonteille ajo sallittu"
2. ja joskus, kuten esimerkkikuvassa, näissä myös "tarkoitettu jalankulkijoille + polkupyörille", nuo neliskulmaiset merkit
3. tai toisin paikoin "yhdistetty/erotettu kevyen liikenteen väylä + tonteille ajo sallittu".

Näistä viimeinen on mielestäni aina cycleway + motorcar=destination, ensimmäinen usein highway=residential + motorcar=destination ellei se ole rakenteellisesti selvästi enemmän pyörätie - silloinkin usein =service.

Pelkkä moottoriajoneuvot kielletty -merkki ilman lievennyksiä on (lähes) aina cycleway. Cycleway on yleisesti kaikille kevyen liikenteen väylille käytetyin ("korkeimman sallitun liikennemuodon mukaan"). Esimerkkikuva on paikkaa tuntematta vähän rajatapaus, mutta jo kuvasta näkyviä perusteluja cyclewaylle voi olla esim. että tiellä ei näy nimikylttiä, tie päättyy suojatiehen (merkin profiili tolpan päässä), toiminnallisesti viereisen autotien osa/kevyen liikenteen osa, (uudehkot) neliskulmaiset "jalankulkijoille/pyöräilijöille tarkoitettu tien osa" -merkit; nämä paikkaa tuntematta. Alv 07:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Aster DEM

Aster DEM -kuvasta tehtyjä korkeuskäyriä peruskartan päällä jossain päin Suomea.

Parempi vertailu saisi jos vertailuun saisi mukaan vielä suunnistuskartta. Niissä korkeuskäyrät on vielä tarkempia. Kokemuksella (25v) teidän että maanmittauslaitoksen korkeuskäyrät ei ole niin tarkoja. Eli, tossa kuvassa voi yhtäkkiä olla niine että se Aster DEM voi olla parempi.--Kslotte 19:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Muutin mieltäni kun luin tämän: http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/shine/archives/2010/01/13/aster-not-worth-it-yet/ Eli, laatu on loppujen lopuksi aika surkea. --Kslotte 22:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

EUREF-karttalehdet Mapserverillä

Kokeilin karttojen ajamista Mapserverillä 1:10000 mittakaavaisten uusien EUREF-karttalehtien mukaan. Tässä ensimmäisessä ajossa 6x6 kilometrin ruutuja on peräti 26624 kappaletta, mutta iso osa niistä on tyhjiä. Tein kartat 2 metrin pikselikoolla, jolloin yksi lehti on 3000x3000 pikseliä. Ajatuksena on, että jotakin voisi huvittaa tällaiset kartat paikallisessa käytössä tietokoneella tai PDA:lla. Samalla tuli testatuksi, että näillä laitteilla kaikkien karttalehtien tekemiseen menee aikaa noin 30 tuntia. Esimerkki tuloksesta on tässä.

Public Saunas

Is there already discussed how to tag a public sauna? --Plenz 07:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I added Sauna to Proposed Features. --Plenz 13:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Bot request for street names

I put an entry into the wish list for bots about Finnish streets with two names. How about streets in Same langauge? Does them even exist? --Kslotte 18:41, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Likely such streets don't exist, but other features (lakes, villages, towns, fells) do. If such automated edits were done, they would have to be limited to streets only; for example embassies have often been given a name=* in the language of the country they represent - regardless of whether that's "right" or "wrong". I don't think double tagging the name gives a significant additional data, as names in Finland are already/should be "in Finnish" if a separate name:fi doesn't exist for that object. The "common default name", as Map features calls it, is just the name and not specifically the name in a specific language. Alv 09:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Alv wrote "I don't think double tagging the name gives a significant additional data, as names in Finland are already/should be "in Finnish" if a separate name:fi doesn't exist for that object." ... the benefit is to be able to turn clients into language modes default, Finnish or Swedish (without having to build complicated if logic). It also makes the data consistent. --Kslotte 12:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

But you'd still need the logic code, as there are features (streets, too: look at, say, Oulu) that have only one name. When features have only one name, why should they be duplicated; it's then not a "name in Finnish" but "the" name. There are more difficult coding issues to handle when using the data than a simple if (or a language preference order list) clause.

If a user wants Finnish names, the application uses name:fi where present, and if not, plain "name" - as it has to use some name. When the default name is wanted, the "name" is the right choice always. Where a street or any other feature has only one name, it's only in "name". Alv 12:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Lets take example ("name=Bläsnäsvägen" and "name:fi=Bläsnäsintie"), if you (client app) prefer to have Swedish names. In this case the client have difficulties figure out what to use. Instead we do with automated edit the assumption that "Bläsnäsvägen" should be Swedish since it differ from the Finnish name. And the assumption is based on the knowledge that there is two official languages in Finland. We don't want to program clients with if name != name:fi then we assume that name is Swedish (that's a bit overkill and also only valid in Finland if you have global client application). --Kslotte 13:02, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

But it's the only name the program can show, anyway, even without knowledge of whether it's Swedish or Swahili. Alv 13:11, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

In my example the client probably will next show "name" tag "Bläsnäsvägen", but the client can not be sure that it is in Swedish as the user wants it. Swahili has ISO 639-1 code "sw", no problems there. --Kslotte 14:46, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. Like always and everywhere in OSM information depends on correct and complete tagging by the users... Bots can fix typos... not add information. Lulu-Ann

I failed at being hilarious with the word Swahili as the point was, that from a practical point of view, it doesn't matter if the name "is in Swedish" or just the "default name", when it is not the alternative, different name in some other language (in Finnish in Finland). Are all names in the mainland UK tagged with name:en? If not, how do you know "in what language the name is"? (You don't, but that doesn't make them anything else than their name.) Alv 22:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

It starts to matter from a practical POV when you want to use some more complex fallback strategies for rendering multilingual maps. Take e.g. the Arabic speaking countries: much of the mapping has been done by tourists who don't speak Arabic, so many features have their name tag in English. If I want to render a map in Arabic, I might prefer to fallback to name:fa if no name:ar is found, because Farsi uses the same script and would at least be readable to my map users before falling back to the default name which might be English. --Lyx 08:06, 26 October 2010 (BST)

If the local names aren't entered as the name, then first fix the data and move names in English to name:en. Alv 08:18, 26 October 2010 (BST)

Apparently I failed to bring my point across, so I try a different example: Someone wants to render a world map for Finish users and so he wants to use Finish names if available, if not then Swedish names and only if those are also not available then the local name. This would work, except for the part of the map that happens to be in Finland: this part would have mostly Swedish names because the information that the name tag contains a Finish name is not in the data (unless you check if the object is within a bounding box for Finland, which would make the process much more complicated, or you duplicate name as name:fi). --Lyx 22:00, 26 October 2010 (BST)

I think the bot is not a good idea, because if a name in one language is only missing then the bot produces wrong data.

If the name is the same in both languages, it should be enough to use name: instead of name:fi etc. Lulu-Ann

Lulu-Ann wrote "if a name in one language is only missing then the bot produces wrong data." ... no, the thing here is that a change is done only of the language name differ from the default name. I could clarify that in the request. --Kslotte 12:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The described process was to add the "missing" language variant only when plain name and only one of name:fi (or name:sv) is already present, but different from the plain name. For streets there can be only the two variants, as far as we know. For other features it shouldn't be used (for example for places with possible Same names etc. up north).Alv 10:53, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Alv wrote "to add the "missing" language variant only" ... Yes, you have understood what it is all about. --Kslotte 12:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Conclusions ... this issue needs to be discussed on globally on broader scale, not only in Finland (apply for example for Switzerland).

The big question is: Should double-tagging (same name as name and name:xx) be done in countries where street names are in several official languages?

Any re-phrasing of this before we move this issue/question where it belong? --Kslotte 12:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes: The answer ist: Double-tagging shall be done, even if the languages are not official. It is enough, if a different name in another language exists. Example: Moscow in kyrillic letters is like "Maskwa", in English "Moscow", in German "Moskau". There is no reason not to tag it, if you know it. It can be used for "Single-Language Maps" and "Multi-Language Maps". Lulu-Ann

Lulu-Ann, thanks for clearing that out. But there is still resistance with doing this with a bot. So, maybe a more semi-automated approach would do it. --Kslotte 16:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not about what is official (naturally all different names are tagged), but about duplicating the default name in many tags. Even the node for Moscow doesn't have both name=Москва and name:ru=Москва. As the other senior mappers on irc had varying opinions about it, I'll have to ask for more opinions about it on the tagging mailing list. Alv 23:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

National park and Nature reserve boundaries

The national parks and nature reserves of some countries are already represented in OSM. For instance, this is the case in England, Norway, Sweden... I have been discussing about the possibility of an import of these boundaries in Finland with a few member of OSM on the finnish IRC channel. Unfortunately, it seems that the existing data license is not compatible with OSM. The data should be available from here. (see also "right to use" description in english)

However, these can not be included in the OSM database because the provider ask for "the source" to specifically appears on maps that could be produced and shared with others. (=> see this thread and this other one -answer from japa-fi- -in Finnish-)

While Norway and Sweden did benefit from a major import of data provided by local authorities (Nature base for Norway), it seems that National Park boundaries in the UK have been mainly drawn manually. => see this topic

quotes: "I think the only way is to get an approximation of the boundaries into OSM, and then use maps to ask people who are likely to know to refine these boundaries more accurately.

One last point many sources of boundary data will be tainted as being derived from OSGB (Ordnance Survey Great Britain) data, but knowledge derived and communicated by people is not."

"National Park boundaries in England and Wales may be several kilometres from their true positions), because of the general absence of non-OSGB derived data."''

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I was wondering what your thoughts were on this way to proceed. I have actually tried it out on the seitseminen National Park (North of Tampere) and the salamajärvi National park (between Kokkola and Kuopio). Knowledge is derivated from the metsähallitus brochures available freely in the various visitor centers. I don't know if I am breaking a rule on that point, and therefore require your help/advice/suggestions. waluyo 18:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)