Talk:Key:surface/Archive 1

Proposed rendering

--UrSuS 12:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Values in addition to paved/unpaved

If the surface key is to be used, I would like to use the cobblestone/gravel values in addition to paved and unpaved. --spaetz 19:57, 12 June 2007 (BST)

I agree. I've been using surface=gravel and surface=dirt as one means of distinguishing between classes of tracks. Robx 10:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I've started a proposal for addition surface values at Proposed features/more surface values. Robx 10:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

People are using the surface key with all kinds of values actually. gravel, cobbles, cobbled, grass, tarmac, unsurfaced, sets, mud, hard, cobble, asphalt, cobblestones, sand, concrete, paving, loose, muddy, boardwalk, tar mac, none, sealed, dirt, woodchip See the Tagwatch stats.

Out of all we've chosen to add cobblestones in addition to the paved/unpaved values originally on here.

I don't necessarily disagree with the addition of cobblestones, but there's a couple of confusing things.

"Paved/unpaved", the original values, actually encompassed any kind of man-made surfacing including cobblestones and tar mac actually. Am I understanding that correctly? It says "surface=paved - A highway feature is predominantly sealed along its length, i.e. it is covered with paving stones, concrete or bitumen.". I wouldn't normally describe a tar mac surface as "paved", and where does that leave all these other values people are using? and how does the addition cobblestones fit it?

The word "Cobblestones" is often misused to describe "setts". see wikipedia:Talk:Cobblestone#Cobbles and Setts. This distinction might be important if you want to know for example how easy will it be to cycle/skate over a surface (or how slow you'll have to drive) Now a #cobblestone:flattened vs sett below

-- Harry Wood 00:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

So lots of those values have been added in now in a table. It's still not clear when you would use paved/unpaved though -- Harry Wood 15:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Default

Shouldn't the default be paved for everything except track? not everything except unclassified? Kpalsson 17:46, 15 September 2007 (BST)

I suppose everything except track and footway would be the way to go.--Guenter 16:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Rendering

This is currently not affecting rendering, secondary, and secondary+unpaved are being shown exactly the same way. This makes this tag fairly useless at present? Kpalsson 13:56, 25 September 2007 (BST)

Roller Skating

Actually, if improved, this key could be very useful for roller skating. But this would be very important to distinguish the roads that are "covered with paving stones" and the ones with "concrete or bitumen". That's a BIG difference for roller skating.

Ice Roads

The picture of ice road must be there mistakenly? I think it only makes sense to tag roads on iced water as ice roads, for example, roads across lakes and rivers when the ice is thick enough. Every other usage would easily lead us double tagging surface values. Practically every surface could become iced in right condition. Repetitive combinations like surface=asphalt + surface=ice_road would not be very useful. Lazzko 10:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a wrong picture (depicting winter road, not ice road) has been imported from Wikipedia article. Lazzko 23:54, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Imported a proper ice road picture from Wikimedia. Case closed? Joosep-Georg 20:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks good! lazzko 14:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

using paved everywhere

this page says "The term paved/unpaved road is used in the UK, the term sealed/unsealed road may be used elsewhere".

i believe this is a very bad idea, as it would require every editor/renderer/navigator etc to implement several values for the same thing. it might also open the way for some sort of nationalised tag values/tags, which would be a disaster. i'd suggest deciding on a single definition for a single feature. i've been using 'paved' so far.

hierachy

This tag makes it quite difficult to have a clear hierarchy for routing purposes. Could someone who claims to understand the purpose of this tag update the hierarchy at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_tag_usage?--Guenter 16:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

metal / wood

I'm missing this surface... Both used for smaller bridges (mainly for pedestrians and bicycles wihout asphalt), wood also for swampy areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy_road --Mueck 21:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• +1 for using surface=metal or surface=wood for bridges with those sorts of surfaces. Not sure about corduroy roads: those would seem to be something different: more than one material, for one thing. --achadwick 21:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• What about raised plank walkways for foot traffic through swampy areas? I think I've used surface=wood for those too, even though they're more of a construction than a simple surface. --achadwick 21:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I also add metal an wood. Yes, I also now see, that corduroy has an additional surface above the wood, that's the difference to wood-only? I meant the plank walkways... --Mueck 21:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Combining different surface values

I think it should be emphasized that multiple surface values can be combined (i.e. editors should not only allow the selection of one value). This would be handy to describe roads which are in a bad condition. E.g. an old tarmac road with potholes filled with gravel and grass could be tagged as surface=tarmac;gravel;grass to indicate that the road is mostly tarmac but parts of it are gravel or even grass. The values should be ordered based on their occurrence on the ground with the main surface listed first. -- Xoff 21:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• Separate stretches consisting of single materials should ideally be tagged using separate segments with differing values for surface=*. However, what you've described could be beneficial, I've no objection to it provided you write it up fairly formally and understandably. In your update to the main page, perhaps you could stress that this is for distinct, sizeable and frequent patches of different surfaces which affect ease of traversal and not for: a) aggregates of materials all mixed in together, b) really big continuous sections which warrant ways being split and the split segments being tagged separately? --achadwick 01:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• BTW, multiple surface values cannot be combined now. Or at least, if you do nobody else will know what you mean. Generally, you can't just use semicolons to separate tag values in OSM. It need to be specifically written down that you can do this in the proposal or the tag description page at the very least, and ideally you need support for it from all software that matters. --01:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• Also: "editors should...". You want to be talking to the JOSM people directly about that: it's a new capability for presets.xml: a zero-or-more flag for a selection dropdown, perhaps. Other editors make use of JOSM's presets.xml for their own presets and autocompletes, so that would be the place to start. Could you suggest it via the JOSM trac, and refer them back to this section? Thanks. --achadwick 01:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Use on nodes?!

It has been added, that surface shall not only be allowed on ways but also on areas.

I propose to allow nodes aswell.

Objects that are smaller than 5m diameter shall be mapped as nodes, so usually a tree in an urban area in a small sand hole in the asphalt is a node.

This surface difference is of great interest for the orientation of blind persons and to identify a place where they guide dog can be allowed to drop excrements.

See OSM for the blind.

Lulu-Ann

See the discussion at https://github.com/Microsoft/Open-Maps/issues/17, there are many valid cases for surface on nodes, eg. amenity=parking, leisure=playground, leisure=pitch, highway=traffic_calming. These are widely used (50,000 surface tags on a node), does anyone object with correcting the wiki to update how the tag is actually being used, ie. making use on nodes valid? Aharvey (talk) 13:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Done in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:surface&diff=1609617&oldid=1532998 Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 14:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Surface=compacted doesn't fit well

Since revision http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&oldid=275898 there is the value "compacted" for surface, which IMHO doesn't logically fit well (generally surface-values are materials). I suggest to replace with "compacted_hardcore", because nearly all road-surfaces are indeed "compacted". -- Dieterdreist 15:31, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

surface=sand

I suggest to use surface=sand specifically when the surface is soft and not suitable for bicycles. If the surface is hard, I suggest to use surface=unpaved only. This way, bicycle routing could avoid those paths or make a special note. --User:Wribln

The surface tag is not only about bicycle routing, but for all kinds of transportation. If you want to add bicycle specific tags see the Mtb wiki page. --Scai 12:05, 18 August 2011 (BST)

The surface being sand is not 'bicycle-specific'. --NE2 16:11, 18 August 2011 (BST)

Of course not. But using surface=sand whenever a surface is soft and not suitable for bicycles and using only surface=unpaved whenever a surface is hard is just wrong. --Scai 18:51, 18 August 2011 (BST)

Sure. --NE2 18:37, 19 August 2011 (BST)

metal and wood in unpaved

Is there a good reason to keep metal (" Sometimes used for bridges, or for temporary tracks over fields for normal road vehicles or site traffic.") and wood ("Used for bridges and plank walkways for foot traffic through swampy areas.") in unpaved section? For me these surfaces are clearly paved. Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 21:01, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Changed Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 19:36, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

surface=barkdust

This is often used at playgrounds to provide natural cushion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkdust rendering should probably something red-brownish --Stefanct 12:08, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Existing values include:

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/surface=bark

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/surface=bark_mulch

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/surface=mulch

--NE2 03:24, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Is it worth distinguishing from surface=woodchips? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 16:17, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Resolved: no reply, NE2 is inactive now

Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 06:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Really just "wood"?

surface	wood	 	Used for wood surfaced bridges, plank walkways, and garden decking

Perhaps differentiate plain wood vs. treated lumber, composite lumber[1]. Jidanni (talk) 03:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to tag additional detail with a separate tag. For example surface=wood + wood=treated_lumber Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 23:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Resolved: See ATYL and Proposal process - marking for archiving as nothing actionable for improvement this specific page is in this section Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 07:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Steel grid bridges

This might be a North-American peculiarity, but we have quite a number of steel grid bridges here. An example image would be this. Having the ability to tag this would be great, especially for cyclists for whom this type of surface can be quite dangerous. Any thoughts? --Hobbesvsboyle 04:00, 29 March 2011 (BST)

I believe the best term would be 'metal grate' or 'open grate' - best not to include the type of metal. The latter is used on at least one sign: http://www.pbase.com/csw62/image/51996024 --NE2 06:46, 31 March 2011 (BST)

That makes sense. "Steel grid" is the only term I've heard around here (Upstate NY); we have one bridge with a warning sign in town and I'll check what it says. --Hobbesvsboyle 03:01, 1 April 2011 (BST)

Okay, I checked, and the warning sign says "steel deck". I like the material-neutral approach, though, and will use the "metal grate" tags for now. --Hobbesvsboyle 20:05, 5 April 2011 (BST)

Resolved: surface=metal_grid is now listed Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 06:45, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Different surfaces on a segregated foot-/cycleway

How can we tag different surfaces on a segregated foot-/cycleway? I.e. cycleway-section has surface=asphalt and footway-section has surface=paving_stones. --MasiMaster 15:31, 27 September 2012 (BST)

Presumably an expansion of the access tags for the way could be used, such as foot:surface= and bicycle:surface= ? Or surface:foot= / surface:bicycle=. Or would it be surface:footway= and surface:cycleway=...? --John Grubb (talk) 15:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

If if is tagged with highway=footwag, maybe cycleway:surface=asphalt might be easiest for data consumers (since that tag should override surface=* when looking for bicycle routing. Otherwise, drawing the footway and the cycleway separately should be preferred here. Bxl-forever (talk) 09:48, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Resolved: See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface#Surface_for_footways_and_cycleways Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 06:54, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

"I need a surface tag for..."

Generally speaking, if you find you need a tag for something that isn't listed, have a look through the tagwatch listings (example) for the surface types that people have been using in the past, and copy them! Bear in mind though that this is largely driven by JOSM's presets.xml and the surface values it contains - people are lazy and tend to pick what's suggested :) --achadwick 21:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Or OSMdoc --Mueck 21:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved: no actionable advise for editing this specific page Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 06:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)