Proposal talk:Estate Agent

Discuss Proposed features/Estate Agent here

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Solicitors shop

As slightly off-topic comment, I notice this is the only page mentioning 'Solicitors'. Should we have a tag shop=solicitors ? Legal services... Lawyers... etc etc

-- Harry Wood 15:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Definitely. There are at least two on my local high street. Earle Martin 20:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

There is a proposed feature shop=legal_services at Proposed_features/legal_services MikeN 18:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Great. I'll add my photo over there -- Harry Wood 18:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Estate Agent

+1 for estate_agent. There are not only common in cities but also in touristic areas. We rent our flat for one week holiday throw a local estate agent. --Eric S 21:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

+1 from me too. This should be quickly added to key:shop. Bitplane 11:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Bank?

In Germany it is common that local banks offer estate agency services, too. Is a bank a shop then, too? --Lulu-Ann 10:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember if amenity=bank and shop=estate_agency shall be used on a same node. Otherwise, a dedicated proposal can be done (for example estate_agent=yes). The case of mixed services (administrative, post office, shop, ...) in a same place must regularly occur, especially in low population density area. Does anyone have faced this problem ?. -- Djam 10:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I think amenity=bank and shop=estate_agent on the same node will be misleading, unless maybe it's a thing which is equally as much a bank as it is an estate agent. In tag descriptions I think it's good to talk about the "primary" purpose of a shop/amenity, and we use "top-level" tags to describe primary purpose of these things. There's lots of examples of shops which are primarily one thing, but with a side-line another. A bookshop will often sell newspapers. A newsagents will often sell some groceries. etc.

But for extra detailed mapping, you'd use additional tags describing what products and services are on offer. Could follow the shop=car approach and add service=estate_agents to the amenity=bank node. I think we're also using vending=x;y;z for particular products on sale (?)

-- Harry Wood 11:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Shop or office ?

I found this proposition OK because :

• office=* does not exist yet, and shop is described in a large sens (OSM wiki definition of shop=* is : A place selling a retail product or service. These may range from the obvious shops such as supermarkets and places to buy food to video rental and car dealerships to places offering some kind of retail service such as paying electricity bills, car washes, high street accountants and tax preparation.)

• shop=* already includes such services : shop=car_repair / dry_cleaning / funeral_directors / glaziery / hairdresser / laundry / massage / travel_agency

To people willing an office=* tag, can you explain here what exactly is/ isn't a shop for you ? thx -- Djam 19:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I'm one of the people who said they don't like the shop key for this value. A shop is for me a store which deals in retail of goods you can take with you/touch. That is why I oppose the use as described above, too. I think we had used this definition for the sake of simplicity and the lack of a proper key. That doesn't mean I oppose it nevertheless and would like to see the introduction of an "office" key ("service" would IMO be even better, but this key is already widely used for a different purpose) ;-) Rramthun 20:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As Richard Fairhurst said :OSM tagging has traditionally worked by identifying fairly significant "objects". This is a chemist, this is a trunk road, this is a canal.. Then, when a see a shop, I know it is a shop. When I see an office, I would like to tag it as an office. --Pieren 20:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, Pieren, but I would like to have a clear definition of what an office and a shop are or aren't, and that this segregation does not lead to "whether office or shop" discussion everytime we want to add a tag for a "place, open to public, that sells goods or services". -- Djam 17:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm also not a native english speaker. Only the brit's can say if something is usually identified as a shop or as an office. I am myself looking for a good definition and if I find one, I could create directly the "office" key page. Reading the mailing list, "shop" is not the usual attribute for estate agents.

Having a look at the Webster online dictionnary : "shop" is "an handicraft establishment", "a building or room stocked with merchandise for sale", "a small retail establishment or a department in a large one offering a specified line of goods or services", "a commercial establishment for the making or repair of goods or machinery" plus some rare usages and at the very end "a business establishment". $

For "office", it says "a place where a particular kind of business is transacted or a service is supplied: as (a) : a place in which the functions of a public officer are performed (b) : the directing headquarters of an enterprise or organization (c) : the place in which a professional person conducts business".([1]).

The proposal for a key "office" came with the tag "architect" which does not fit well with the key "shop", neither "amenity". Other values might be less obvious to choose like "estate_agent" and we should rely on the english native speakers to say which of the keys is the most appropriate. -- Pieren 18:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Rramthun, you say A shop is for me a store which deals in retail of goods you can take with you/touch. : I disagree with this definition as the Wiktionary and OSM wiki shop=* description do. Notice that Wiktionary 4th definition's synonyms are office, place of work, workplace. Wiktionary also has entries for bucket shop, pawnshop, coffee/tea shop, barbershop... English is not my mother tongue, so I ask without irony : Are these words deprecated ? Aren't they shops ? Do you think an estate agency should have the key office while previous examples would have shop ? -- Djam 17:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

As there exist quite a lot of different buisness with a place/office/studio/workshop we should get some rules, how to map this. I do not like to call them all shops. There are definitly some offices (lawyer,architect,estate_agent) which should be tagged as this.--Skyper 15:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it's probably quite nice and simple to just lump a lot of values under the shop key (as is implied by the Key:shop description) They don't all necessarily need to be listed as separate table rows on Map Features. Would be nice to start taking a slightly more minimalist approach to the way things get listed on Map Features, but that's another discussion.

In this case "shop" fits reasonably well. I see what you mean about the estate agents not retailing/selling any goods, but we can certainly describe them as a kind of "highstreet shop". You're actually more likely to call it "An estate agents shop" than "An estate agents office" in english.

-- Harry Wood 16:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Simplicity

Sorry if it is offtopic. I'm glad that something basic like an 'estate agent' is proposed on how we should tag it. Estate agents are found in Greece too! I would really like to map them! So this proposal helps! If it was offtopic, sorry. This message is more of a congratulations message. logictheo 21:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep. We need to get lots of these basic tags into nicely written wiki tag pages, or at least nicely written proposals. This was an effort to do that. I'm repeatedly encountering non-native english speakers who will push somewhat incorrect ideas about how english words are used (sadly this shop<->office discussion is a case in point) This makes it more important than one might imagine, to document the exact meaning of tags and include photos alongside. -- Harry Wood 11:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

As a non-native English speaker I have to make a point here. You can't rely on everyone knowing good and perfect English. Keys and values are in English, but are used around the world. There are no translated keys. (But tools like JOSM could actually implement some sort of translated front end even for tags.) So you have to at least try to solve the nearly unmanageable task of finding not only good and intuitive English tag names, but also those whose common translation in a lot of languages is the same amount of intuitive. To know that it's a 'barber's shop' but an 'exchange office' is pure *cultural* language knowledge. There is no 'rule' to it someone without this cultural knowledge could follow. So either we rely purely on tools like JOSM to choose the right tags for us, or we invent clear intuitive rules for keys even if it's not always according to the best English language. It's an *encoding* after all. Chaos99 09:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Status?

The voting is over - so it should get updated!?