Proposal talk:Place=neighbourhood

Unsuitable for areas

There's no tradition of using place tags for areas. I think it is ok to tag neighbourhoods with a place tag but it would be a deviation from what we're doing now if this were used for areas. (A place tag on an area typically becomes a boundary polygon!)

In turn, this also means that the new place=neighbourhood tag cannot replace landuse mapping as the proponent seemed to think when he wrote that "people have 'arranged' themselves with 'misusing' landuse=* for this purpose." - a landuse=residential tag is for tagging an area predominantly used for residential purposes (which may or may not be a "neighbourhood") and there's no reason to stop using that! --Frederik Ramm 10:21, 1 September 2011 (BST)

There is no tradition in doing places with areas, but there is a lot of them coming up, and there is a lot of benefit in doing it. At the moment there is more then 100.000 place-areas (actually ways, but I guess that's areas) according to taginfo. This is of course not a proposal to replace landuse. --Dieterdreist 02:30, 4 September 2011 (BST)

I sympathize and generally agree with Frederik about not using 'place' for an area. This whole discussion (with below) prompted me to re-evaluate mapping of two residential subdivisions I put up a couple of days ago. I had originally tagged them as 'place=subdivision' but I've just now revised this by removing the 'place' tag and adding 'boundary=administrative + admin_level=9 + description=residential subdivision'; the latter might be done better with 'residential:type=subdivision', used in conjunction with the already present 'landuse=residential', but I wasn't sure. See Changeset 10237684 for the changes I made. --Ceyockey 17:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

smaller than a suburb

"The tag place=neighbourhood should be applied to a part of a bigger settlement when this part is smaller than a suburb" - what does "smaller than a suburb" mean? What is the criteria? Dinamik 20:55, 1 September 2011 (BST)

The criterion is the surrounding area. It might take some time in some areas but I am confident we will get a feeling what should be a suburb and what a neighbourhood. This is the same question as what to tag as secondary and what as primary, it is relative and might depend on the area / settlement structure. This was proposed because suburb is currently describing a very big range of parts of settlements and at least in some areas more granular classification is desirable. I'd consider a neighbourhood the smallest entity of settlement-divisions. --Dieterdreist 02:37, 4 September 2011 (BST)

What can be mapped?

I think we should revisit this section. The tag is called "neighbourhood" so, you need to use it only to tag neighbourhood, so no commercial areas, no landuse. I think for that cases site relation is better. --wiso 18:20, 3 September 2011 (BST)

Yes, I'm also not completely sure if it makes sense to extent this for parts of the city, which are not residential. Would like to have more discussion about this. --Dieterdreist 20:23, 15 September 2011 (BST)

The city of w:Winnipeg has “neighbourhood” as the smallest subdivision. This includes industrial and other areas with a population of 100 or less. I've been mapping such neighbourhoods as place=locality. Their names are less commonly used, and mapped this way the labels are less prominent in Mapnik. —Michael Z. 2011-09-29 00:49 z

What about rural areas?

In rural Ireland, there is a subdivision of a parish (village) called a "townland", which forms the most detailed part of a postal address (see Geocoding for an explanation). The Geocoding page indicates they are typically tagged as "locality". It might also come under this proposal (as mentioned by Dieterdreist above, "the smallest entity of settlement-divisions"), but townlands are not part of a suburb, they're part of (or attached to) a village.

Agreed, there is certainly a need for a way to mark parts of villiges; suburb seems just wrong and locality should be used for uninhabited places.--Xificurk 22:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, place=locality is plain wrong for these, as it is for uninhabited places. I think your "townland" could be tagged as "neighbourhood" even if that's maybe not correct English (like surburbs are not only in surburbia in OSM). For villages I'd not tag any suburb usually, maybe there could be quarters (entity between the smallest parts and the village as a whole), but when in doubt I'd use neighbourhood.--Dieterdreist 01:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

admin_level for neighbourhoods

The boundaries of suburbs have admin_level=9 or admin_level=10 (country-specific guidelines at Key:admin_level#admin_level). Would a neighbourhood boundaries have a one-level-lower admin_level or two levels lower when there is an intervening level of quarters? —Michael Z. 2011-09-29 03:26 z

I think it depends on the region and the type of neighbourhood. I think usually it is not appropriate for neighbourhoods boundaries to be tagged with boundary=administrative, or even have a boundary at all. In some cases where there are well defined borders for neighbourhoods ((e.g. master planned communities in the US) that I think should be defined by an area. I'm sure it would be up for debate, but I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to use boundary=administrative for neighbourhoods that are managed or controlled by a homeowners' association (HOA), considering that the HOA has the legal authority to levy assessment fees (i.e. taxes) and enforce regulations, all similar to the powers of a town. And in some countries neighbourhoods might be an official administrative division. I think this debate shouldn't be a part of this proposal, but should be considered separately and likely on a country-by-country basis. -- Joshdoe 12:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Suburbs can coincede with administrative entities, but they don't necessarily have to everywhere in the world. This proposal is about a part of a suburb, thus smaller, and could in some cirumstances be admin_level=suburb_admin_level+2 (so two levels below, because the suggestion is to have "quarter" in between) but really it doesn't have to be an administrative entity. This is a place entity, not an admin_level. Use boundary=administrative and admin_level for administrative entities and place for settlement entities. For country specific guidelines please discuss in your local community. -- Dieterdreist 13:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose vote rationales

ceyockey

Based on proposal to use the the feature to tag areas in addition to nodes. --Ceyockey 17:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your rationale, it's something I wish more people did. I think tagging places as areas is a separate debate, so I'd be in favor of removing this language if it earns more support. -- Joshdoe 03:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Pieren

"until you move the "main tags" as optionals excepted name=*" (quoted from vote line) --Ceyockey 17:51, 29 December 2011 (UTC)