Talk:Australian Tagging Guidelines/Transportation

Definition of access tags?

What is the definition of the special access keys for bus lanes proposed here? Neither 'limousine' nor 'hire_car' are mentioned in any other place. --Mueschel (talk) 09:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Mueschel:. These tags are intended to document two specific exceptions to bus lane usage which didn't seem to align with any existing tags. access=limousine would cover limos, while access=hire_car is intended to cover Vehicle for hire. These tags haven't been widely adopted, and the community is very much open to better suggestions if you are aware of alternate tags? Diacritic (talk) 12:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

In most places I know this would be covered by taxi=yes as we don't have any distinction yet for Taxi / Uber / Lift operated cars etc. --Mueschel (talk) 12:23, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Stop names [Originated at Talk:Public transport in Victoria (Australia)]

Stop names currently follow two conventions:

1. "short name": name contains only the intersecting road or landmark (and stop number for tram stops)
2. "full name": name contains both the intersecting road or landmark, and the road on which the bus route travels (separated by a slash "/").

A discussion on the reasons for one or the other approach started here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/104864868, which gives reasons in favor of the first approach.

Answer to linked discussion: I agree, most bus stops I've seen don't have a name on the main bus stop sign (they do on the timetables). If they do, I've seen both: only landmark/intersecting road, or road on which the bus route travels (in smaller font) in addition. The tram stops I've seen have the full name (but I have less information on that).

Reasons for the full name:

• Removing the part after "/" is easier than adding it. Removing the part after "/" could be done automatically, but adding it requires external data.
• Some larger bus stations have bus stops with the same first part that are on different streets (second part). For example: Reservoir Station has stops on High Street, Edwardes Street and Spring Street. Without the second part it is more difficult to disambiguate which bus stop it is. Even if there is only one bus stop (for example Southern Cross Station on Collins Street), with the second part you immediately know where it is located from just the name.
• Some bus routes have more than one bus stop with the same first part. For example: Bus route 567 has two stops at Preston North East Primary School (on Tyler Street and on Laurel Street). Or Bus route 508 has two stops at Sydney Road (on Victoria Street and on Blyth Street). Without the second part it is more difficult to disambiguate which bus stop it is.
• With the second part, a user can easily follow the bus route. For example, on the list of (bus) stops in OsmAnd, when a (bus) route is selected.
• With the second part, a user knows immediately where the bus stop is located. For example, "Bourke Street/Queen Street" is more informative than only "Bourke Street".
• Journey planning and searching for stops on the PTV website is less ambiguous if the user knows the full name. This can be useful, for example, for tourists because they know they found the same bus stop on the PTV website and OpenStreetMap. Currently Melbourne Airport is an example where it can be confusing because of inconsistently named bus stops. It would be better with, for example, Melbourne Airport/Grants Road and Melbourne Airport T3 Skybus/Arrival Drive. If the bus stop was only named "Melbourne Airport" it would be difficult to know which bus stop it meant.
• Addition to 1b): Timetables I've seen at bus stops show the full name.
• Addition to 1d): London seems to have both full and short names, for example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/469768047, so might not be the best reference

Travaudat (talk) 07:09, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

For convenience, I'll summarise the discussion on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/104864868 in favour of the short name (note that this discussion took place in May 2021 and some changes have been evident since):

• Key:name states that the primary name should be used for this tag. The page gives further guidance in determining the primary name: "the primary name would be the most obvious name of the feature, the one that end users expect data consumers to expose in a label or other interface element. Here are the usual sources of primary names:

• The most prominent name on a sign posted on the feature itself, especially for a feature in the built environment
• The name of the feature on a sign elsewhere, such as a fingerpost..."

• Bus and tram stop flags (being the situation on the ground) either have no name printed, only the short name printed (as described above) or, rarely, have the full name printed but in this format: "Glenferrie Rd [double newline] Cotham Rd" (2245800488 2245800488). This lends credence towards the short name being the primary name.
• On-board passenger announcement systems and information displays only use the short name. (weaker argument)
• Previous practice (prior to the PTv2 upgrade efforts that started in January 2016) was to tag only with the short name for tram stops. Few bus stops were tagged at the time so the tram stop naming practice was propogated to the bus network.
• Other jurisdictions with a similar naming scheme uses the short name tagging method, e.g. London. (contradicted by Travaudat above; also see additional considerations below)

Additional considerations:

• The full name version as described above is only used on the PTV timetables, API and website, which are licensed under CC BY 4.0. Given the licensing compatibility issue with ODbL, the full names should not be imported until we have clarity over the licensing situation (either an explicit waiver or further developments in the legal grey area). In the meantime we should rely on the situation on the ground. (This is not to say that further discussion of the merits of either naming scheme should be prohibited though.)
• It appears that PTV is introducing new signage and wayfinding elements on new and upgraded public transport stops, with a slightly different naming scheme. Signage at 2266807379 2266807379 now says "South Yarra Station [new line] on Toorak Road" since June 2021. The new naming scheme is also used at 3925153644 3925153644: "Flinders Street Station [newline] on Swanston Street".

– Pizza1016 (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

New Signage

New bus stop sign at "Richardson Street/Rathdowne Street" 7204980227 7204980227. Travaudat (talk) 00:57, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

August 2021 [Originated at Talk:Public transport in Victoria (Australia)]

Hey @Travaudat: Thanks for writing up the guide thus far! I've been occupied with IRL matters over the past couple of months, and still am at the moment, so I'll only be editing sporadically. I did move the copyright message to the top though since it is important.

If you're happy to, I propose that the page be moved onto the mainspace so that it gets a bit more traction, and we can link to it from other relevant pages. – Pizza1016 (talk) 09:11, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey @Pizza1016: Thanks a lot for your great additions to the guide. Sorry for the late reply, but I didn't have much time at hand for OSM.

I would be more than happy if the page was moved onto the mainspace. Travaudat (talk)

Subway tagging

Regarding the following: "The railway=subway tag should only be applied to rapid transit systems which are operated separately from the wider rail network. Currently, only the [W] Sydney Metro and the under-construction [W] Metro Tunnel in Melbourne meets this criteria."

The Melbourne Metro tunnel, while in itself can be considered a "subway" or "metro", the trains running across that section will still continue to Sunbury & Pakenham which have sections of track also used by V/Line. In my personal opinion it does not fit that criteria, since it does not make sense to have part of the same line tagged differently to the rest of it. The Suburban Rail Loop on the other hand fits the criteria perfectly since it is entirely self contained and disconnected from suburban/regional infrastructure, just like the Sydney Metro.

Hence my proposal is to change "Metro Tunnel in Melbourne" to "Suburban Rail Loop in Melbourne"

Mikideez (talk) 10:38, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I would disagree, as the Metro Tunnel itself has all the features of rapid transit. Were we to change this criteria, Tokyo would only have 3 subway lines. --SHB2000 (talk) 23:08, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I am not asking to change the criteria, I quoted what it currently is, and explained why the so-called "Metropolitan Railway Tunnel" does not fit that description. Mikideez (talk) 06:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Canberra Metro

Why exactly is this signed as a "tram" and not "light rail" when it has the exact same specifications and track type as Sydney or the Gold Coast? --SHB2000 (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

If there are no objections by next week, I will go ahead and change the specs. --SHB2000 (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)