Talk:Tag:amenity=funeral hall

Non-religious funeral hall on a denominational cemetery

The contrary example also exists: a non-religious funeral hall (way 120635795) on a denominational cemetery (way 118329044 and way 41136751), established because a lot of non-members are buried there, for whom the nearby church (way 118329045) isn't an appropriate venue.[1]

On the website; Alle Personen, unabhängig davon, ob sie einer Kirche angehören oder nicht, ob sie im Dorf Lichtenhagen wohnen oder nicht, können auf diesen Friedhöfen bestattet werden. So anybody, Christian or not, inhabihant of the village or not can be buried in this cemetery. So a non denominational cemetery isn't? Operated by a church, right. Not really a "contrary example". IMHO tihs parenthesis can be removed. --Nospam2005 (talk) 07:36, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

The cemetery is tagged as lutheran, as are generally all German cemeteries run by a lutheran church. Thing is, I doubt there are a lot of church-run cemeteries left in Germany where they would refuse non-members (they refuse to conduct the ceremonies, of course, but not the grave on the cemetery). So, if you want to consider all those non-denominational, you'll have to do a lot of convincing in the German OSM community first, I think. Vollis (talk) 07:55, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Good point. As long as they accept to tell their administration their religion (after WWII I mean), the case is probably hopeless :-(. --Nospam2005 (talk) 08:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Funérariums, Aufbahrungshallen etc.

At the occasion of a discussion on a particular building, it appeared that there is another category of buildings that deserves a tag. This concerns amenities were dead people are not only stored but exposed for friends and family to visit them awaiting a funeral. These are widespread in certain countries, often linked to funeral directors shops, but elsewhere completely distinct. In order to avoid confusion, I'm thinking of making another proposal, but the best I can think of is amenity=chapel_of_rest. Alas, "chapel" is religiously connotated. But "funeral parlour" or "funeral home" can be confused with funeral directors. Any better ideas? Vollis (talk) 14:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC) "Wake rooms" perhaps? Vollis (talk) 15:16, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

In British English usage, "chapel of rest" is non-religious and generally means a room in a funeral director's premises for viewing bodies. A posh name for a funeral parlour. But it can also be an adjoining building, an adjacent building, or a building separated by a large distance. See this description of a chapel of rest by one of my local undertakers (his office is about 350 metres away from the chapel of rest).

Whatever you and many others (Britsh or not) consider "chapel of rest" to be, it's necessarily going to be opposed by some others on the grounds that it's too connotated (it actually already has). That's why I would rather avoid it, if possible. It's not a question of who is right or wrong on this, simply one of predictable problems. Vollis (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

However, the principal is that (with a few exceptions in special circumstances) OSM tags use British English. Editor presets are free to present them differently depending on the user's default language. The editor preset is a better place to deal with possible confusion. Avoiding tags that could cause confusion outside the UK will instead cause confusion inside the UK (and anywhere else somebody assumes the principle that tags use British English applies). --Brian de Ford (talk) 15:50, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

We probably ought to use the same tag whether it's a room at a funeral director's (use a node without building tag) or a separate building (map as a building). After all, it serves exactly the same purpose whether it's a room in a funeral director's or a dedicated building. --Brian de Ford (talk) 13:15, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely, this is for worldwide use, after all, and in some countries, it will be run by funeral directors, in others somewhere completely else. But I think, a subtag would be good for a funeral directors shop with a chapel of rest: shop=funeral directors term_we_are_looking_for=yes (same for crematoria). Vollis (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

That's easy, if we go for amenity=chapel_of_rest, then for shop=funeral directors, it should be chapel_of_rest=yes.

Brian, is it the correct term in British English? Or do you have other equivalent terms looking less connotated? --Nospam2005 (talk) 08:54, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

As with all nomenclature, there is a degree of descriptive inflation forced by marketing. That inflation is worse in this particular profession because once one term becomes equated with death they look for some other, less obvious, term. "Chapel of rest" seems to be fairly standard nomenclature in the UK. See this guide. Two undertakers near me call their buildings, separate from their offices, "chapel of rest." I'm not sure if all undertakers would have the cheek to describe a small room in the same building as their office as a "chapel of rest" but according to the guide they probably do. --Brian de Ford (talk) 12:18, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I was starting to consider that "chapel of rest" is indeed the least bad solution, but then I was thinking about the possible subtag, where we could also indicate the number of rooms if known: amenity=crematorium, wake_rooms=5. Which would again plead for "wake rooms", a term that admittedly isn't widely used, but it seems descriptive enough to do the job. What do you think? Vollis (talk) 17:20, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

amenity=crematorium, chapel_of_rest=5 or something similar would also do the job, wouldn't it? --Nospam2005 (talk) 19:57, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Funerals are not something I've had much experience with. My impression is that wakes are (or were) specific to one branch of Christianity and that the British English meaning has largely adopted the Irish take on things: the wake is the party (before or afterwards the funeral) with food and alcohol. If it's before the funeral, the body may or may not be present, but the wake is held at the home of the deceased (usually). In British English, staring at the body in a chapel of rest is a "viewing." --Brian de Ford (talk) 20:37, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Building type

The original text by Vollis said: "It should also be noted that a tag building=funeral_hall would only make sense if the architecture of the building alone were to indicate its destination as a funeral hall (independently of its actual usage). It is doubtful if such an architecture exists. Therefore, in order to enable proper discussion of the question, there is a proposal to deprecate the use of building=funeral_hall here."

For the building type it is sufficient that it was purpose-built for the purpose, and no more specific type (e.g. chapel) applies. The building tag is not about architecture as an art. --Polarbear w (talk) 23:09, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jeisenbe, I appreciate you effort to settle the discussion with your recent edits. However there is no real controversy. There is just a misunderstanding by one or two people who are imaging the building=* tag as an expression of an architectural style, which it is not. It is the building type, i.e. the purpose the building was originally erected for. As far as I know there is no tagging of architecture in OSM, i.e. we do not distinguish if a church is gothic architecture or 21st century - all are building=church. Same here, if it was built as a funeral hall, it is building=funeral_hall. --Polarbear w (talk) 22:19, 25 October 2020 (UTC) There is a separate tag Key:building:architecture to tag a building's architecture. --Polarbear w (talk) 20:51, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Place of worship

We have defined funeral halls as excluding premises which are places of worship. It was me who suggested that in the beginning, simply because there wasn't anything wrong with the existing tagging of religious funeral halls as places of worship - as opposed to the tagging of non-religious funeral halls as places of worship wich was alas widespread as well. Nevertheless, some of these places of worship on denominational cemeteries are actually used mainly or exclusively for - indeed religious - funeral ceremonies. I'm not suggesting not to tag them as places of worship anymore, but I'm wondering whether now that we have the subtag funeral_hall=*, we could not add the information. The tag funeral_hall=yes is supposed to be used for ancillary premises, but we could e.g. put funeral_hall=religious. I'm in particular thinking of Jewish funeral halls. In Germany, they will normally be simply called "Trauerhalle" just as the municipal ones, never a "Synagoge" or "Bethaus" like other Jewish places of worship. And I could imagine that some renderers might want to distinguish them from a synagogue as well. But also in other contexts, it could be useful information that e.g. a given chapel ("Kapelle") is indeed there specifically for funeral services ("Friedhofskapelle"). The proposal for funeral_hall=* explicitly did not prejudge (one way or the other) the use of any other value than "yes". If nobody has a big issue with this idea, I would simply formulate a bit more open here and at funeral_hall=*, so that people who want to use funeral_hall=religious in such cases don't feel discouraged. Vollis (talk) 12:50, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

You don't have to invent funeral_hall=religious. Just use denomination=*. If it has a denomination, it's religious by definition. --Brian de Ford (talk) 13:45, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Here is the thing: you can't have amenity=* twice, and the amenity is "place of worship". So, you can use funeral_hall=*, but the value "yes" was supposed to be for ancillary premises. That's why I was thinking of a different value. Now, we could change the meaning of funeral_hall=yes, or we could say don't tag these things as places of worship anymore, but in both cases it would be a bigger change than I was ready to suggest. I wouldn't think it's worth it, then. Vollis (talk) 17:15, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with amenity=funeral_hall + religion=judaism + denomination=whatever. In fact, if the funeral hall is religious, you'd want to specify the religion and possibly the denomination. --Brian de Ford (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

If it were just me, no problem either. But I'm not ready to pick a fight with all these people who have until now - quite justifiably - tagged those buildings as places of worship. Then, I'll do nothing at all. Vollis (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Ceremony room. More general religion/lifestance-neutral buildings / halls / rooms

Hi, I wonder how to tag buildings, halls or rooms that are are used for various ceremonies to celebrate various life events, like birth/name, coming of age/confirmation, and to some extenet funerals (or marriage), but primarily for non-relious celebrations. Or open to any life stance, religion or lack thereof. When I search the net I find quite a few references to "ceremony rooms" and definitely in Norway the equivalent of seremonirom has during the past 10 or 20 years become an established term. In Norway it is often used for non-religiosplaces where funeral ceremonies are held, but some rather or also for coming of age or name-celebration ceremonies. One possibility for tagging could be amenity=events_venue, but I'd like to be able specify that what is meant is a place that functions more like the church does in ceremonies like a wedding, than like the party-place used after a church wedding. And generally a place that you cannot or would not rent privately, but where a lifestance organisation often is the host. If e.g. amenity=ceremony_room was established, how to handle for instance the use of room(s)in city hall or a library or cultural centre or similar for such purposes? A separte node I guess. The best result I imagine, would be tagging that allows grouping at least two main types of ceremony rooms through an overpass query: showing often used rooms/locations for non-religious or neutral ceremonies for coming-of-age / confirmation on ethe one side and the ones more specific for funerals on the other side. I know this is slightly off-topic here, but absolutely related to some themes in the previous discusions. MortenLange (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

When I proposed “funeral hall”, that was because those buildings on public German cemeteries were often mistagged as places of worship. I understand from what you are saying that seremonirom in Norway are also a distinct category which would be misinterpreted with an existing tag. So, that makes sense. An additional question is: Are they all neutral or could they be for a given life-stance (like that of Human-Etisk Forbund). If you have the latter, then you would also want something analogous to religion=*, e.g. life-stance=humanist. And if you start doing this, how do you tag a room then, that's open to all (at least those that don't have their own premises in the area), a secular wedding today, a Jewish one tomorrow, a Catholic one next week...? Religion=multifaith, life-stance=all? Vollis (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and questions. Yup neutral is the rule in Norway. To my knowledge there are no examples of seremonirom in Norway that are exclusively for any life-stance organisation. Partly because of inclusivity on behalf of Human-Etisk Forbund, partly because that makes it easier to argue for the establishment of more such facilities. So I do not think the life-stance tag would be used in Norway any time soon. But... it might be or becomer an issue elsewhere. In Norway we tend to go for tax-financed, whereas e.g in the U.S, they would go for others forms of financing. And often more focused on a group or purpose (?). For use in a setting where the facility might be owned by a group, I think that the life-stance=all tag/key pair (or e.g =humanist where that is the case) is way better than religion=multifaith. Because several life-stances are not religions. Does that make sense? MortenLange (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Concerning religion=multifaith, the thing is that the tag exists and if a room is for everybody, then it's also for all religions and religion=multifaith is perfectly correct, just not complete. I don't think you will have much luck trying to replace religion=* by something more encompassing, so for me life-stance=* would be an addition and a hall for everybody could be tagged with both religion=multifaith and life-stance=all. Vollis (talk) 19:27, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment, Vollis. MortenLange (talk) 11:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)