Talk:Tag:street vendor=yes

Street vendor is not a shop

A shop is some kind of building, room or premises for retail or work (see e.g. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shop). A mobile street vendor is not (, does not operate and does not have) a shop, even if the vendor comes to the same place every day. I suggest to use amenity=street_vendor + street_vendor=*, instead, using any value defined at shop=*
-- Freetz (talk) 04:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shop

"An establishment that sells goods or services to the public; originally only a physical location, but now a virtual establishment as well."

"establishment that sells goods"

Where you found requirement of building? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 11:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

"Etymology: From Middle English shoppe, schoppe, from Old English sċeoppa, sċoppa (“shed; booth; stall; shop”), from Proto-Germanic *skupp-, *skup- (“barn, shed”), from Proto-Indo-European *skub-, *skup- (“to bend, bow, curve, vault”). Cognate with Dutch schop (“spade, kick”), German Schuppen (“shed”), German Schober (“barn”), French échoppe (“booth, shop”) (< Germanic)." on that same Wiktionary page.

"An establishment that sells goods or services to the public" is technically not a shop, despite of some contributors to Wiktionary (and other websites) believe and say differently. The word establishment may refer to a place, but also to an organization, but an organization is not a shop, they may operate a shop though.

It is also technically wrong to speak of "a place selling things" as the english version of shop=* does. But you know these argumentations already ;) Most OSM Wiki pages in other languages use the correct terminology and grammar similar to "a place where things are sold." in their corresponding languages.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shop, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/establishment

--Freetz (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

""An establishment that sells goods or services to the public" is technically not a shop" - I followed source that you posted on your own. "Etymology" - etymology does not define meaning. Many words are unrelated, divergent or opposite to their original meaning, see for example etymology of word "slave" - it no longer refers to a specific ethnic group Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

True, etymology does not define anything. The meaning of "shop" has changed, or more presicely, was extended and it longer only refers to something like a barn. Yet a shop is still a place, and while it might not be well defined how many walls and doors it has, and if it even needs a roof, a shop is not the seller that sells things, it is the place where the seller sells things. Most people I know would say "I bought food at the shop" if they physically went to the shop, and would say "I bought food in the shop" when they want to point out that they actually went inside. "I bought food from the shop", to me means, that the food was bought from the business or person in or at the shop, or who operates the shop (it doesn't say to me, that I actually physically went to the shop and bought the food there). So the shop is still just the place but not the seller. I believe this is still the most common understanding today, and I wasn't able to google me wrong yet :)

--Freetz (talk) 06:56, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/establishment - not a native speaker, but why food truck is not "place of business (...) with its furnishings and staff"? Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd say "a place doesn't move". Now, if a food truck is stationary and never moves, I can see good reasons to agree to map it as an amenity=fast_food. However, I still see a problem with it: most of the time, users will expect that such an amenity=fast_food has a restroom (sometimes even a legal requirement), which food busses may have (if there are any), but not food trucks. So from that perspective, I'd rather tend to also map immobile food trucks as street vendors. No harm is done that the truck is present all the time.

--Freetz (talk) 06:10, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree that mapping such places as street vendors is useful - that is why I invented street_vendor=yes. It seems that difference is whether mapping street vendor fast food as amenity=fast_food is OK Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:30, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Replace with physically_present=*

I suggest replacement this tag with physically_present=*. It is more generic, and in context of shop is full equivalent. Something B (talk) 11:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Street vendors are physically present - but not all the time. See say this photo of long-standing food truck Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 13:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm preparing a proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors

physically_present=* doesn't solve the fundamental problem in mapping volatile street vendors.

--Freetz (talk) 18:45, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Permanent presence out of opening hours

There's currently no way to distinguish stalls or cars which are permanently installed/parked on the location from those that are disassembled or moved outside of season or opening hours. For example, a greengrocer selling watermelons may have the truck parked from July through September, but opening hours only from 8 to 18 throughout that season. While exactly specifying the season may be an overkill (and it may vary from year to year), we need something like permanent=yes (or abuse intermittent=*). Duja (talk) 15:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Note that there are more stages: for example lanes painted on the surface marking assigned stall location, there may be a permanent signpost, there may be a signpost of a higher level of organisation (siignpost of fish market for example), there may be signposts leading to a given location, place may have a locally recognised local name and so on Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 14:10, 27 January 2023 (UTC)