User:Mvexel/Welcome Working Group/log121213

Preliminary discussion in #osm

[15:14] <mvexel> heads up that we're having a Welcome WG orientation meeting in 45 minutes on #osm-strategic
[15:16] <mvexel> I need to figure out in advance what the handy meeting logging commands are, I seem to remember there are some
[15:16] <mvexel> any pointers?
[15:17] <RichardF> mvexel: zere has a 'meetbot' installed in #osm-ewg, I believe
[15:17] <RichardF> maybe http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot .
[15:17] <mvexel> RichardF: oh so it may be channel specific
[15:17] <RichardF> yep
[15:18] <mvexel> hmm, well it's not that important, I will just parse my local irc logs
[15:25] <PovAddict> mvexel: welcome wg?
[15:29] <mvexel> PovAddict: see message to talk from a few days ago
[15:29] <mvexel> PovAddict: also: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome_Working_Group
[15:29] * PovAddict doesn't follow any mailing list
[15:31] <PovAddict> mvexel: a few days ago I tried out Distributed Proofreaders
[15:31] <mvexel> PovAddict: what is that
[15:31] <PovAddict> mvexel: it's a website where you check and correct OCR'd public domain books
[15:32] <PovAddict> after several phases of proofreading the plaintext, and someone assembles it into a proper e-book with nice formatting, it ends up in project gutemberg
[15:32] <PovAddict> I only reviewed a few pages
[15:33] <PovAddict> and today I got a super-detailed private message from a more experienced user who reviewed my changes and gave me feedback and suggestions
[15:34] <mvexel> PovAddict: how did that make you feel
[15:34] <PovAddict> - like the project isn't dead (unlike OSM, that's not obvious from the website)
[15:34] <PovAddict> - like someone actually cares for my contributions
[15:35] <mvexel> I'm a bit concerned that it will people will feel spied upon - even though in general I am in favor of more experienced mappers welcoming newcomers
[15:35] <mvexel> PovAddict: interesting
[15:35] <PovAddict> perhaps
[15:35] <PovAddict> but I think this project [DP] has a more explicit tiering of both contributors and contributions
[15:35] <mvexel> this is something I would want to discuss in the Welcome WG - what are some of the strategies we can take to make newcomers feel more welcome
[15:36] <mvexel> I don't want it to be about editors though, but about the social aspect of OSM
[15:36] <PovAddict> for example, this [what I edited] is in the group of so-called "beginner pages"
[15:36] <mvexel> but it's really not up to me to decide
[15:37] <RichardF> mvexel: it's OSM, it's just as much up to you as anyone
[15:37] <PovAddict> you know up-front that the whole way this works is that the book pages go through multiple rounds of proofreading, so it's not unexpected that someone will directly look at what you did
[15:37] <ris> PovAddict: i have found one way to foster this spirit was adding an osm-bot feed in #talk-gb showing new editors
[15:38] <PovAddict> but it was somewhat unexpected that they'd email me feedback rather than just quietly fixing what I did wrong
[15:38] <ris> PovAddict: means people look at and discuss new contributions more often
[15:38] <PovAddict> (unexpected, not unwanted)
[15:38] <ris> i email people
[15:38] <ris> (takes fucking ages)
[15:38] <mvexel> RichardF: right - I just don't want to exclude anything outright - of course I have my thoughts on what a Welcome WG would covere
[15:39] <PovAddict> well I do have another anecdote to point out
[15:39] <PovAddict> (among other things) we're talking about people looking at what new editors do, checking if it's okay and giving feedback, right?
[15:39] <mvexel> PovAddict: that's interesting. I would like newcomers to be more aware that they are not operating in a vacuum
[15:39] <sabas> semi.OT: some days ago I came into a dataentry job for google maps regarding addresses, they gave an address and a visual on satellite images, and asked if it was coherent, if it was positioned correctly and if it was a residential or commercial address
[15:40] <PovAddict> a few times I *explicitly* asked for feedback here, giving changeset IDs and stuff like that, and I got nothing
[15:40] <RichardF> PovAddict: changesets aren't easy to visualise right now.
[15:41] <rasher> Another problem is it can be hard to answer the question "Did I do something wrong in changeset X"
[15:41] <rasher> Yeah what RichardF said
[15:41] <mvexel> PovAddict: it's hit and miss here on IRC and there's no obvious single communication channel for newcomers
[15:41] <PovAddict> &node 2060751420
[15:41] <osmbot-test> PovAddict: Node 2060751420: version 2 by nicolas17 edited 2 days ago and has tags name=X-Arte, amenity=arts_centre, addr:housenumber=420, addr:postcode=B1828ABJ, addr:street=Av Alsina, opening_hours=Tu-Fr 16:00-20:00;Sa 10:00-13:00, website=http://x-arte.com.ar/main.html http://osm.org/browse/node/2060751420
[15:41] <PovAddict> ^ is my opening_hours data correct there, format-wise? it's the first time I use it
[15:41] <RichardF> sure, you can post us a link, but it's actually quite hard to see what you've changed. we need to build better tools to show "PovAddict renamed Frog Street to Bill Street"
[15:41] <rasher> PovAddict: looks right
[15:42] <PovAddict> is it implicit that it's closed sunday and monday?
[15:43] <mvexel> does anyone know if anything happened with the welcome wg after http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome_Working_Group/2012-10-17_agenda
[15:43] <RichardF> PovAddict: I think the problem there is that you're simply asking a fairly obscure question. I suspect only 0.1% of this channel knows about opening hours tagging. I certainly don't
[15:43] <mvexel> I feel like it needs a reboot
[15:43] <RichardF> mvexel: aiui there was one meeting, just that
[15:44] <mvexel> I think a good start would be to at least schedule regular meetings, how many times do WGs meet typically?
[15:44] <RichardF> CWG and EWG meet weekly
[15:44] <mvexel> I am thinking a bi-weekly scheduled meeting would keep the flow
[15:44] <mvexel> It's a bad time to start perhaps, with the holidats
[15:44] <RichardF> SWG is dormant, OWG meets in the flesh but not sure how frequently, DWG I think mostly communicates by email
[15:44] <mvexel> *holidays
[15:45] <PovAddict> mvexel: I saw a relatively minor open source project that had regular scheduled IRC meetings to crawl through the bugtracker
[15:45] <PovAddict> don't see that often :)
[15:45] <mvexel> PovAddict: ha! Welcome Bugs!
[15:46] * SomeoneElse finally writes up http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/new_mapper_messages
[15:47] <mvexel> SomeoneElse: interesting. How do you define 'problems'? Is that a manual check?
[15:47] <mvexel> we have been talking about the notion of data stewards on the US board a little.
[15:48] <PovAddict> ah it was scons
[15:48] <SomeoneElse> mvexel: Currently yes.  I'm looking at some sort of automated "not joined to anything else" finder, but that's a way off.
[15:48] <rasher> ugh, scons
[15:48] <mvexel> a possible task for a data steward would be to check newcomers' first edits and provide some guidance (for the area they steward)
[15:48] <PovAddict> [...]
[15:48] <PovAddict> <PovAddict> is there a planned meeting?
[15:48] <PovAddict> <sk> PovAddict:  yes
[15:48] <PovAddict> <PovAddict> this channel was quiet for the whole day, and all of a sudden it got crowded :)
[15:48] <PovAddict> <garyo-home> Hi PovAddict, yes it's the every-other-week bug party
[15:48] <PovAddict> <garyo-home> where we triage recently submitted bugs.
[15:48] <sabas> I do this sort of thing already mvexel 
[15:49] <mvexel> sabas: I think a lot of people already do
[15:49] <PovAddict> I'd totally help review changes in my area
[15:49] <PovAddict> but unfortunately I'm a bit lonely in my neck of the woods
[15:49] <SomeoneElse> mvexel: There's a fairly unofficial process on osm-gb - new mappers get posted there, people check them ad-hoc and someone says "I'll contact ABC re XYZ" or "is there anyone local to DEF"
[15:49] <mvexel> I am thinking it would be nice to formalize it somewhat
[15:50] <sabas> I obtained a 13 on 19 responses via immediate contact
[15:50] <PovAddict> sabas: awesome
[15:51] * PovAddict worries a bit about community fragmentation
[15:52] <SomeoneElse> As a "first contact point" the help site's pretty good, although the "you must search first" nazis can get annoying
[15:52] <sabas> I remade the Italian website inspiring to openstreetmap.de and added a geolocated users map with users who said yes to be contacted
[15:52] <PovAddict> I think for many country communities that primarily communicate through the forums, there's also a low-traffic mailing list, and vice-versa; one wonders if they know of each other
[15:53] <SomeoneElse> (rubbish questions get voted down, old ones ignored, as long as the good answers are voted up all's good)
[15:53] <sabas> because I was thinking that there should be a welcome automated mail personalized by each community
[15:53] <simonpoole> there is
[15:54] <sabas> PovAddict: I have rss on the Italian forum and tell posters to go on the ML or I report the messages directly
[15:54] <simonpoole> except that some communities haven't doen anything about it but checkout for examplethe german mail you get on sign up
[15:54] <sabas> I registered the import account and saw the mail I had received
[15:55] <sabas> there are linked some videos made by steve 2-3 years ago
[15:55] <sabas> O.o
[15:55] <PovAddict> sabas: automated welcome email? I approve
[15:55] <PovAddict> sabas: I edited the map for a week or two before I found my country community had an active forum
[15:56] <simonpoole> you just need to sign up for translate wiki and you can work on your national one, the only issue is that the pure language based split is rather rought so you should ta other communities with the same language in to account
[15:57] * simonpoole hopes that was legible
[15:57] <sabas> I saw there was no activity on the forum, I saw on IRC they didn't answer me, I didn't know how ML worked so I tried Nabble, I didn't registered on ML so the messages didn't go through LOL
[15:57] <mvexel> simonpoole: do you have a link to the welcome emails on the translate wiki?
[15:58] <sabas> simonpoole: can it be implemented in some other way?
[15:58] <sabas> like on phplist there's a wysiwyg interface and you can compile html and non-html versions
[15:59] <sabas> I believe an attractive email would work better
[16:00] <sabas> mvexel: perhaps it's time we move in #osm-strategic so I stop spamming here :D
[16:00] <mvexel> yes we will start there now

Actal meeting in #osm-strategic

58 < mvexel> we're having a preliminary discussion on #osm but we'll start here in a few minutes with the welcome wg meeting
59 -!- Manfred [~58869b1e@shenron.openstreetmap.org] has left #osm-strategic []
00  * PovAddict edits map meanwhile o.o
00 < mvexel> it's noon here in Utah, so let's get started
01 < PovAddict> @ anyone, let me know if you weren't in #osm and want a backlog of the discussion there
01 < mvexel> My name is Martijn van Exel, I am the president of the US chapter
01 < mvexel> If you want to introduce yourselves, please do :)
02 < mvexel> In the mean time I will just give some background
02 < mvexel> Richard Weait started the initiative for a Welcome Working Group a few months ago (WWG from now on)\
02 < mvexel> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome_Working_Group
03 < jeffme> Hi - Jeff Meyer, new guy, interested in making it easier for noobs to get started & then stick with it.
03 -!- Manfred [~58869b1e@shenron.openstreetmap.org] has joined #osm-strategic
04 -!- lezurdis [~ram7@fny94-2-81-56-43-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #osm-strategic
04 < sabas> I'm stefano sabatini, I am an Italian student, mapping since mid 2011, I'm involved in italian community and I proposed some activities in my community to involve more people in OSM
04 < PovAddict> I'm Nicolas Alvarez, relatively recent contributor (2012-10-27) from Buenos Aires, Argentina
04 < RichardF> hello all - I'm Richard Fairhurst, general long-standing PITA
05 < mvexel> There has been one meeting before this one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome_Working_Group/2012-10-17_agenda
05 < mvexel> Anyone here who was also in that meeting?
05 < Manfred> Hi, Manfred Reiter, Germany
05 < SomeoneElse> I'm Andy Townsend, mapping since 2008, in the East Midlands of England
05 < Manfred> Luis from Portugal is joining us
05 < jeffme> I love pita - Greek food is great
06 < PovAddict> RichardF: I'll consider adding that to the IRC quotes page :)
06 < mvexel> I think we'll just go with the assumption that noone was in the previous WWG meeting
07 < PovAddict> :)
07 < mvexel> so let's call this a reboot.
07 < SomeoneElse> I was, but you didn't miss much
07 < mvexel> I read the logs
07 < Manfred> I have to apologize for Madalina from Romania, she is ill and in bed :8
08 < mvexel> they are here for anyone interested http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome_Working_Group/2012-10-17_agenda/irclog
08 < mvexel> So I did not really make an agenda but I have a few things I would like to talk about
09 < mvexel> most importantly what do we want the scope of this WG to be?
10 < RichardF> "improving the experience for the would-be OpenStreetMap contributor"?
10 < mvexel> what is the pain we will try and address
10 < mvexel> RichardF: that is a great but very ambitious goal :)
10 < mvexel> doesn't hurt though
10 < sabas> setup tools for welcoming new users; improving the first edit experience, provide some sort of tutoring
10 < RichardF> OSM is great but very ambitious :)
10 < mvexel> we'll need to break it down
11 < jeffme> I believe it should be to retain a greater % of new sign ups to OSM
11 < PovAddict> well, let me read the proposal wiki page first :) "Welcome WG" is vague by itself
11 < RichardF> we want it to be an easy process from "seen problem with map" -> "I have fixed problem with map" -> "I want to come back and edit some more".
11 -!- Caterpillar [~Caterpill@93-45-231-165.ip104.fastwebnet.it] has joined #osm-strategic
11 < RichardF> other people are addressing the "tools need to be easy-to-use" problem, so we don't need to worry ourselves with that.
11 -!- LMC [~55f3e44a@shenron.openstreetmap.org] has joined #osm-strategic
11 < jeffme> I'd like to see us size the relevant metrics before we decide how much energy should be spent.
11 < mvexel> RichardF: agreed
11 < RichardF> but fixing the tools isn't enough.
11 < mvexel> jeffme: what are relevant metrics?
11 < jeffme> Do we currently analyze user metrics & publish any reports?
11 < PovAddict> I agree that ease of use of the tools is out of scope
12 < PovAddict> editing UIs etc
12 < mvexel> we know how many sign-ups never edit anything (around 70% last time I looked)
12 < jeffme> Metrics like - how often is someone who signs up returning to make edits 6 months later
12 < sabas> with tools I meant the welcoming email etc :) sorry I go afk for a while
12 < Manfred> @ LMC ... Luis you are right here 
12 -!- sabas is now known as sabas_afk
12 < PovAddict> mvexel: I'd like to know why
12 < jeffme> what does our average user profile look like?
12 < LMC> yes, just arrived
12 < RichardF> there's a Piwik instance, but not currently any publicly available analysis from it.
12 < jeffme> do people sign up, make 1 edit & leave?
12 < LMC> Hello to all
12 < jeffme> or 10 and then leave?
12 < jeffme> or 100 and stick around?
12 < PovAddict> jeffme: a friend did that
12 < RichardF> Pascal Neis's analyses are also worth looking at.
13 < jeffme> any links?
13 < mvexel> ok we need to collect some relevant links for these metrics
13 < RichardF> http://neis-one.org/
13 < PovAddict> the edit-and-leave I mean, not the average profile :P
13 < jeffme> then, I'd say the goal of this group should be: figure out which metrics matter for retention
13 < jeffme> and try to improve those
13 < mvexel> and we need someone to delve into them and try and make sense of hthem
14 < mvexel> jeffme: or in short: improve retention (which is basically what RichardF suggested)
14 < jeffme> I can do that
14 < PovAddict> I told a friend to find his area in osm, he said "it looks pretty complete... oh but that shop is in the wrong building... let me sign up and fix it"
14 < jeffme> yes!
14 < RichardF> http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/
14 < PovAddict> he also marked another building as being the regional police HQ
14 < PovAddict> and that was it
14 < PovAddict> a month ago
14 < RichardF> _but_ I would seriously caution against getting too involved with detailed scoping-out issues... it's not a great way to get a volunteer WG enthralled about fixing the problems :)
14 < jeffme> muchas gracias
15 < mvexel> do you aree there is a human/social dimension and a documentation dimension in retention? more perhaps?
15 < mvexel> (except for the tools / UIs)
15 < PovAddict> I agree, yes...
15 < jeffme> Yes - totally agree. I'd suggest we survey people who've dropped out & ask why.
15 < jeffme> Survey Monkey
16 < PovAddict> retention is tricky, because there's feedback loops involved
16 < alexbarth> what's dropping out?
16 < alexbarth> :)
16 < SomeoneElse> For info, here's what I currently do locally : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/new_mapper_messages
16 < mvexel> editing once and never coming back?
16 < PovAddict> for example, if people are motivated by having other people in their area mapping too, instead of feeling like doing the job alone... how do you bootstrap that?
16 < alexbarth> �I'm roughly thinking that in a first round of the outreach campaign it would be great to do a standardized manual outreach drive, local mappers contacting nearby beginners. Document and share findings. We'd want to define - who to go after, - what to offer when contacting, - how to 'measure' results
17 < jeffme> or… worse… 1st session, lots of edits… 2nd session, fewer… 3rd fewer…. never a 4th. maybe someone who's interested, but frustrated
17 < Manfred> well ... some word ... we http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Comenius_OSM_and_Tourism are a group of european schools and bringing students to OSM
17 < alexbarth> goal being to identify major hurdles for new comers and suggest concrete improvements to OSM that could alleviate them
17 < PovAddict> hmm
17 < mvexel> jeffme: we could also appreciate that there are different kinds of contributors - not everybody is interested in becoming a lifeling OSM addict
17 < PovAddict> how about this: there's more to OSM than using the edit tools
18 < alexbarth> jeffme: this is the paper by pascal et. al on OSM contributor patterns that was mentioned above: http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/1/2/146
18 < Manfred> we have some experience ... but only with students between 16 and 18
18 < jeffme> understood - segmentation is a key question. That's a typical web design question, right? How do you segregate beginners, casual types & get them on the best track for them. Same for experts.
18 < PovAddict> would it help if we had a way for people to contribute with informal and unstructured survey notes, that can be added to the map properly by JOSM experts?
18 < jeffme> alex - gracias
18 < RichardF> PovAddict: that's pretty much the bugs branch, which is being worked on.
19 < RichardF> (like http://osmbugs.org/ , but easier and fully integrated into osm.org.)
19 < mvexel> so about bulk messaging people - is that even possible? I don't think it is
19 < RichardF> also, screw JOSM experts, P2 FTW ;)
19 < RichardF> mvexel: it's expressly prohibited
20 < mvexel> so if we want to do any surveying, how are we going to go about doing that?
20 < PovAddict> RichardF, mvexel: do we consider editor flamewars out of scope for the WG? ;)
20 < RichardF> mvexel: I'm sure that if there was a provable need for a bulk mail, the OSMF board/management team would be happy to consider lifting the bulk mail restriction.
20 < jeffme> how bulk is bulk? What's the best way to reach people who've dropped out (however we define that?)
20 < mvexel> I mean it's been done before, https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/16461/Horizon%20March%202010%20(Haklay%20and%20Budhahtoki).pdf?sequence=2
20 < RichardF> the restriction's only there because people have abused it in the past.
21 < jeffme> mvexel: that icl press is great
21 < mvexel> ^ that haklay / budhathoki study is interesting and relevant by the way
21 < jeffme> but it's old
22 < SomeoneElse> Whilst I can see the benefit of an impersonal "welcome - here's where the docs are" mail everything after that should be personalised if possible (one human to another)
22 < PovAddict> let's turn osm into a Social Network!!1!cos(0)
22 < mvexel> before we start thinking about ideas that would involve writing code, who around here can actually do that?
23  * PovAddict watches as everybody looks the other way
23 < jeffme> shifting gears here a bit… do we have an idea of which resources noobs are able to find & use & then actually like?
23 < mvexel> jeffme: not that I know of. but we have complaints from folks who get lost 
24 < PovAddict> mvexel: is your question about ability or availability?
24 < jeffme> I'm curious of how many contributors used learns.org 
24 < mvexel> PovAddict: both
24 < jeffme> whoops… learnosm.org
24 < PovAddict> never heard of it :)
25 -!- sabas_afk is now known as sabas
25 < mvexel> jeffme: interesting question. One complaint I hear sometimes is that beginners come to the Wiki and get really confused
25 < jeffme> we may want to survey newcomer resources & see if there's a logical workflow
25 < Manfred> @ Luis ... learnosm.org sounds interesting
25 < sabas> I link learnosm.org as the first resource
25 < RichardF> yep. the wiki's a disaster zone. learnosm's great but not flagged up from OSM, and it has the fairly obvious disadvantages that the tools it recommends are JOSM and QGIS.
25 < RichardF> which are both terrific in their own way, but not necessarily designed for OSM beginners.
25 < PovAddict> the only reason I don't get confused with the wiki is because I have experience with worse
25 < RichardF> hopefully when iD comes on-stream we can get some love into learnosm.
25 < mvexel> RichardF: so an obvious win would be to join the learnosm.org team and start expanding on that
26 < jeffme> If the wiki doesn't confuse you, reading talk: sending to talk@ or using IRC certainly will! ;)
26 < PovAddict> is there a Wiki Team?
26 < RichardF> mvexel: exactly. I'd love to but don't have the time right now, sadly.
26 < RichardF> PovAddict: don't go there. really don't go there.
26 < PovAddict> :<
26 < Manfred> in our project we think about certifications for students and we have a partner from UK who is willing to do that  ... what about that idea?
26 < sabas> I built the website thinking it as a landing page alternative to the wiki, I think that there should be some user-friendlier resources before landing on the wiki
26 < RichardF> the wiki is not the answer to any beginner documentation question with OSM.
26 < RichardF> sabas: +1.
27 < mvexel> Still the 'Documentation' link, confusingly, on osm.org leads right to the wiki\
27 < sabas> I link it blog.openstreetmap.it
27 < jeffme> I'd actually suggest eliminating learnosm.org and move the content to the wiki, etc. Radicual, I know, but I feel like new users get bounced around to wayyy too many different locations.
27 < RichardF> think of the wiki as a community notepad and co-ordination tool. it's for OSMers to provide information to each other, not for osm.org to provide information to newcomers.
27 < Manfred> well our students translated some wiki pages ... only to be a bit more familiar with OSM
27 < tmcw> ( alexbarth knows about the learnosm push )
27 < RichardF> jeffme: sure, but _not_ to a world-editable site like the wiki. everyone adds their own hobbyhorses to the wiki and it becomes incoherent.
27 < mvexel> jeffme: and make it editable to anyone? noooooo
28 < jeffme> I seem to have struck a nerve. : )
28 < jeffme> Ok… could it be moved to the map site itself?
28 < PovAddict> I only fix small things in the wiki because I don't feel confident to do anything more significant, and I feel like (unlike the map) there isn't a place to go to and ask about wiki stuff
28 < tmcw> in the learnosm push, it'll be easy to contribute changes via github pull reqs.
28 < sabas> there's learnosm for beginners, switch2osm for professionals, wiki for the nerds :P
28 < jeffme> why send people off of the product to learn about the product??
28 < RichardF> if we had docs.osm.org, and hosted everything like switch2osm, learnosm etc. there, that would be excellent.
28 < sabas> +1
28 < mvexel> RichardF: excellent
28 < tmcw> yeah, down the line that's definitely the best
29 < jeffme> sabas: that's fantastic - is there a single web page that says that?
29 < SomeoneElse> I'm not sure that "beginners" should be send somewhere that talks about QGIS on the front page.  It might make sense for HOT, but not for "my street has no name"
29 < RichardF> it's a big job. but we could potentially set up a Docs WG if there was enthusiasm for tackling it.
29 < sabas> jeffme: http://no.pe/
29 < mvexel> jeffme: there should be. the wiki should say on the front page 'no documentatioon here. come back, one year!' and a photo of the soup nazi next to it
29 < jeffme> Just that distinction is awesome.
30 < LMC> @Manfred... learnosm looks really great
30 < jeffme> Agreed!
30 < jeffme> Ok, so if we added some better user segmentation filtering to the 
30 < Manfred> we could do some translations into P
30 < RichardF> so, a question. do we, as the Welcome WG, think that documentation is the single biggest thing to tackle now?
30 < mvexel> RichardF: this could be the docs WG instead, I'm happy to tackle that problem first
30 < RichardF> s/biggest/most important/
30 < Manfred> into PT, SL, TR, RO and DE
30 < jeffme> os�m web site & the wiki home page
30 < RichardF> (mvexel: you read my mind :) )
30 < jeffme> grrr… fat fingers… sorry
30 < LMC> yes, sure
31 < Manfred> who is running learnosm.org?
31 < jeffme> add better pointers on home page(s) & make a non-QGIS/JOSM for beginners page through docs.osm.org - is that a summary of what I'm hearing?
31 < mvexel> I mean contributor metrics and drawing conclustions from that are also important, but I'd be happy to focus on documentation alone.
31 < RichardF> as would I.
32 < jeffme> I think we need to do both. I'd say that's our scope: (1) do obvious documentation fixes; (2) analyze data to see if we actually know what we think we know
32 < tmcw> Manfred: mostly HOT
32 < RichardF> documentation's a bigger job than just "obvious fixes", I think.
33 < mvexel> jeffme: it sounded like you would be eager to lead the metrics / analysis effort
33 < jeffme> yes
33 < mvexel> RichardF: agreed.
33 < RichardF> excellent :)
33 < alexbarth> ongoing redesign work on learnosm is here https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/issues/1
33 < jeffme> RichardF - I think adding sabas's distinction to the home page would go a long way
33 < alexbarth> and here https://github.com/hotosm/learnosm/issues/8
33 < PovAddict> you know, sometimes it's not obvious that the map is missing easy-to-add stuff
34 < RichardF> alexbarth: do you think the learnosm people would be open to coming on board with a core-OSM docs project?
34 < RichardF> I mean, that design looks lovely, it would be a superb starting point.
34 < PovAddict> "hey, we don't have the name of this street, can you add it?"
34 < jeffme> that hot github stuff is awesome
34 < alexbarth> learnosm is the hot learning material for their activities, this impacts much of why it looks the way it does and their priorities
34 < jeffme> is there an ETA?
34 < PovAddict> ...though that has the danger that the newbie will immediately go and look for Google Maps to get the info
34 < alexbarth> there are intermediary and advanced docs in the workds
34 < alexbarth> also trainer docs
34 < sabas> I'd like to see also a core presentation
35 < alexbarth> i guess a good place to start expanding on learnosm is to suggest concrete improvements
35 < sabas> like slides, currently each one produces his set of slides
35 < mvexel> as an aside, I think the beginners docs should address armchair vs survey mapping more
35 < alexbarth> e. g. as issues on github.com/hotosm/learnosm
36 < alexbarth> keep in mind that right now much is in flux as HOT is revamping their docs and Jue and myself are relaunching the learnosm.org site
36 < PovAddict> mvexel: what I suggested earlier is to have a way for people to hmm... "survey and not map"?
36 < alexbarth> Kate Chapman and Jeff Haack are leading the content side of things, so best is to talk to them directly
37 < jeffme> alexbarth: is there an eta for the launch? :)
37 < RichardF> PovAddict: like I say, that's the bugs project
37 < alexbarth> jeffme: no
37 < alexbarth> jeffme: Jue just started yesterday with work :)
37 < jeffme> she's behind! ;)
37 < alexbarth> haha
38 < jeffme> does anyone know of anything more promising for beginner's materials than what it looks like is going on with hot?
39 < Manfred> @ Luis: is an LDV for you possible as well?
39 < mvexel> on an organizational note, how about we meet every 2 weeks at this time starting Jan 9?
39 < jeffme> alexbarth: are the plans for learnosm to go to a wider audience or stay focused on hot?
39 < mvexel> I would be happy to do a short weekly meeting as well
40 < jeffme> If wider audience, should anyone interested just review what's there & join in on github?
40 < LMC> @Manfred: sorry don't know yet
40 < RichardF> mvexel: good with me.
40 < Manfred> short and weekly ... agreed
40 < alexbarth> learnosme is for anybody who wants to have an online end-to-end tutorial for OSM
40 < jeffme> mvexel: yes
40 < sabas> we printed learnosm guide and distributed at events
40 < jeffme> alexbarth: awesome. 
41 < RichardF> alexbarth: so it's possible that it's not actually what we want here, I guess - many of our users will be 'snacking' on "I want to know how to do this particular task"
41 < mvexel> good then. I will play secretary and put the logs and next meeting on a wiki (sic!) page
41 < alexbarth> but clearly, it's maintained by HOT with an eye towards their activities. The fact that someone with a direct role in trainings maintains these docs is a huge strenght IMO BTW
41  * RichardF applauds mvexel
41 < jeffme> richardf: what's the best way to understand which of those questions are the most common?
41 < alexbarth> RichardF: yeah, so that's what I'd like to see clearer. Not sure yet. i. e. will we want to distinguish between tutorials and docs in the OSM space or not.
41 < mvexel> so for the documentation effort, should we all just focus on learnosm for now?
42 < jeffme> my favorite is: how do I tag a cafe?
42 < mvexel> or is there more we can do?
42 < sabas> another thing, it's possible to clarify near mappers visualization on main site?
42 < jeffme> mvexel: yes to focusing on helping learnosm
42 < alexbarth> mvexel: i also see tons of room for improvement here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide
42 < RichardF> jeffme: ok, so that question is "how do I add a POI" - this is where the documentation/editor interface comes in. the docs can explain how to add a POI, the editor should make it clear how to make that a café
42 < PovAddict> sabas: more than half the "near mappers" shown there have never actually edited anything
42 < alexbarth> focus on learnosm is good though
42 < RichardF> if we use the word "tag" with absolute beginners, we're doing it wrong
43 < sabas> PovAddict: exactly
43 < jeffme> should we deprecate the wiki beginner's guide soon?
43 < PovAddict> I can't help much with beginner docs tbh
43 < mvexel> alexbarth: agreed, but that will get us into a minefield
43 < alexbarth> did the WWG just turn into the DOCWG?
43 < RichardF> looks like it :)
43 < mvexel> alexbarth: for now, yes
43 < alexbarth> mvexel: minefield, how so?
43 < mvexel> it seems to be the most immediate problem
43 < jeffme> richardf: actually, the questions is a bit more complex - how do you know it's a POI and not a building?
44 < mvexel> alexbarth: the beginners guide will likely have folks watching over it who have strong opinions
44 < mvexel> alexbarth: but maybe not
44 < RichardF> jeffme: I'm not using POI in the OSM "tagged node without parent way" sense, I mean an actual "point of interest"
44 < jeffme> And, which of the several appropriate cafe tags do I use? many editors support multiple?
44 < RichardF> the rest is implementation
44 < jeffme> aha!
44 < mvexel> alexbarth: I just looked at the discussion page for it and it is pretty substantial
44 < alexbarth> ha, just did the same thing
45 < mvexel> although not too many 10 level nested discussions that I could see
45 < RichardF> really, really, don't get involved with the wiki
45 < RichardF> it hurts
45 < alexbarth> so, if we make this a documntation working group, we should be public about this and rebrand to ahve the right folks on board
45 < mvexel> yes
45 < RichardF> +1
45 < jeffme> actually… I suggest it *not* be a documentation working group
45 < PovAddict> if we make this a documntation working group, the wiki is in scope whether RichardF likes it or not :P
45 < jeffme> and focus on documentation for new OSM'ers
45 < PovAddict> there we go
45 < jeffme> :)
45 < RichardF> PovAddict: I'm on the board, bow down before my aw3s0m3 authority ;)
45 < mvexel> but the wiki is not documentation
45 < PovAddict> that's different :)
45 < mvexel> we could make a political point here
46 < PovAddict> mvexel: the wiki *is* documentation
46 < PovAddict> but it's not documentation for new people
46 < alexbarth> so �we make this a 'beginners material working group' :p
46 < Manfred> @ Luis ... what about our presentationß
46 < sabas> uh, so there should be 2 WG, documentation and welcoming :D
46 < jeffme> mvexel: really? I think most outsiders would interpret it that way. Also… apparently, not following guidelines set there can get you blocked! ;) I'd call that documentation.
46 < mvexel> sabas: yea but there may not be enough momentum to start two WGs now
46 < mvexel> jeffme: that's what's wrong with it
46 < jeffme> gotcha
47 < mvexel> there definitely is documentation hiding in the wiki
47 < RichardF> jeffme: we need to get blocker-level policies onto osmfoundation.org tbh
47 < mvexel> but as a whole it does not comprise documentation
47 < jeffme> who's writing the summary of this meeting? (i.e. who's controlling history?)
47 < jeffme> I think adding a simple, short statement to that effect on the wiki left-nab would go a long ways.
48 < mvexel> jeffme: my irssi client is logging
48 < LMC> our presentation?
48 < mvexel> jeffme: try getting the wiki home page changed :)
48 < mvexel> jeffme: although I saw it has changed recently
48 < Manfred> is anybody here who could check this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/1/1e/OSMJOSM.pdf
48 < jeffme> mvexel: I meant a human-readable summary so we don't force people to read a chat log.
49 < Manfred> if it is correct? .... useful?
49 < jeffme> you sound like people who tell me to read change set tags! ;)
49 < LMC> yes, I belive so it is
50 < mvexel> jeffme: that sounds like work ;)
50 < alexbarth> workig on the iD editor here we're thinking a lot about documentation as well… I'm seeing a lot of docuemtnation living in id in the future
50 < sabas> there's /will be a separate ML for this WG?
50 < alexbarth> with the editor guiding much of your mapping decisions in the first place but then having e. g. tagging documentation onboarded
50 < mvexel> sabas: good point, there should be
50 < mvexel> but there is no official working group yet
50 < Manfred> separate ML ... very good idea
51 < jeffme> mvexel: I can summarize, send to you for review & you can send it out.
51 < shaunmcdonald> having a user interface that minimises the need for documentation is even better.
51 < mvexel> not that I care about that- but it helps gets things done
51 < mvexel> jeffme: thanks!
51 < PovAddict> Manfred: are you using a vector logo in that PDF?
52 < Manfred> yes
52 < mvexel> Manfred: looks fine to me
53 < mvexel> so we're getting to the end of this hour - I need to go at 1 (I am being interviewed about OSM for Marketplace Tech Report, w00t)
53 < jeffme> Thanks mvexel for leading this effort!
53 < mvexel> what actions can we derive from this?
54 < Manfred> ok ... the Comenius group will have a look on learnosm.org
54  * mvexel will post stuff on the wiki
54 < jeffme> I'm looking at the data & writing notes
54 < jeffme> the team will review learnosm on github
54  * mvexel will look at the official side of things - starting a mailing list, becoming a WG
55 < jeffme> gotta run...
55 < Manfred> @ Someoneelse: are you still here
55  * mvexel will look at the learnosm docs as well
56 < mvexel> can we meet again next week at this time and place?
56 < SomeoneElse> Manfred: Yes...
56 < Manfred> we will apply for a new Comenius project with a school from Hull in the UK
56 < mvexel> Why wait till January?
56 < sabas> +1
57 < mvexel> ideas for where to announce these meetings?
57 < PovAddict> Manfred: slide 8, secondray -> secondary
57 < mvexel> I still want to see if we can get some more folks
57 < Manfred> upps
57 < sabas> talk@?
57 < Manfred> :-9
57 < Manfred> :-)
57 < mvexel> sabas: indeed
58 < mvexel> I will tweet as well (haven't tweeted in weeks though, probably no followers left)
58 < PovAddict> Manfred: slides 3 and 6, you can spell it color (US) and colour (UK), but not "coulour" :)
00 < Manfred> upps ...
01 < Manfred> in our next porject we will have a school from the UK ... that helps a lot ;-)
01 < Manfred> I hope, my portugues is better ;-)
01 < mvexel> calls end of meeting  - thanks all for joining and hope to see you next week. 

User:Mvexel/Welcome Working Group/log121213

Preliminary discussion in #osm

Actal meeting in #osm-strategic

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