User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome Working Group/Initial meeting agenda/irclog

(02:00:06 PM) rweait: *** Logging begins ***
(02:00:19 PM) samlarsen1 [~02d9934c@shenron.openstreetmap.org] entered the room.
(02:00:20 PM) rweait: we'll drop this log in the minutes afterwards. 
(02:00:45 PM) rweait: I'm very pleased to see that this concept has gained so much positive attention.  
(02:00:59 PM) rweait: I hope that with this meeting we'll be on the road to putting the thoughts into actions. 
(02:01:10 PM) alexbarth: mackerski: na da schau her :) servus!
(02:01:17 PM) rweait: So, introductions?  Everybody, introduce yourselves.
(02:02:00 PM) ***mackerski is Dermot McNally, Irish mapper, OSMF board member, a history of community building hence my interest in this initiative
(02:02:17 PM) RichardF: *ahem* I'm Richard Fairhurst, I'm on the OSMF board, code stuff (mostly editors) and map stuff (mostly cycle routes), and I've wasted seven years of my life on this project :)
(02:02:40 PM) rweait: I map in Toronto and have served on several OSMF WGs.  I'm full of opinions on OSM engagement, and now "I want answers!" and data to back up my opinions.  :-)
(02:03:06 PM) pnorman: I'm Paul Norman, Canadian mapper, I'm on the DWG and I'm far too busy to take on more work :)
(02:03:08 PM) bfx: My name ist Mathis and I live in Hagen, Germany. Most of my mapping work i do there, too. In the past I had only contact to the German community. Additional to the research, the most important thing is to coordinate the efforts. 
(02:03:27 PM) alexbarth: hello everyone, Alex Barth from DC / mapbox here. I'm doing a bunch of OSM intro workshops these days, we're about to push on OSM improvements w/ knight money, this is why i'm interested in the WWG.
(02:03:28 PM) rweait: everybody feel free to follow along in the minutes and keep me on target if we wander.  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rw/Proposal:Welcome_Working_Group/Initial_meeting_agenda
(02:03:46 PM) Komzpa: I'm Darafei Praliaskouski, Komzpa from Belarus. I do insane things with osm2pgsql, and was sending greeting mails for locals for a year or so.
(02:04:46 PM) RM87: I'm Mihkel Rämmel, Estonian mapper, been an active mapper for 2 years. Wery little knowledge in programming and sql.
(02:04:54 PM) woodpeck: I am Frederik Ramm from Karlsruhe, Germany and I think I could help with massag^H^H^H^Hining the OSM data to come up with the confirmations to rweait's theories.
(02:04:55 PM) samlarsen1:  is Sam Larsen and i map UK and everywhere else.  I am mapping Ghana via our mapsforall.org project. I am interested in using this process in developing countries to connect with new mappers and gain momentum in areas where there is not much.  I am keen to test out methodologies in developing countries.  I can contact with mappers in English, Slovak and Czech I can help with Javascript/web
(02:06:10 PM) yarma: I'm Sylvain Maillard, aka Ecologeek on OSM, live in Lyon (France). I'm an active mapper for around 2 years, but kno the project for a long time. I can (and already did) contact people in French. I also ave some skills in python, sql, php, .... 
(02:06:12 PM) MichaelCollinson [~MichaelCo@81-231-254-238-no53.tbcn.telia.com] entered the room.
(02:06:51 PM) rweait: Welcome everybody.  Wonderful to have such a distinguished group in attendance.  
(02:06:57 PM) ajashton: AJ Ashton, cartographer @ MapBox, mapping the various places I've lived around Ontario Canada and Washington DC. Apart from adding missing information, I'm also interested in various cleanup-style tasks. I'm selfishly interested in encouraging more and better mappers because I want the maps I make with OSM to be better ;)
(02:07:50 PM) rweait: Feel free to add your introduction as we carry on. 
(02:08:20 PM) lezurdis [~ram7@fny94-2-81-56-43-171.fbx.proxad.net] entered the room.
(02:09:06 PM) rweait: I envision this group as doing tasks that add hard data to our cultural observations about mappers and mapping. 
(02:09:26 PM) rweait: In the end, we can never know everything.  
(02:09:41 PM) rweait: Also, in many cases there will be no right answer, or several right answers. 
(02:09:59 PM) rweait: Those are both hard problems.  But I think that we can address some simpler problems. 
(02:10:23 PM) rweait: I envision the first goal to be, learn more about mappers who map once and leave the project. 
(02:10:47 PM) rweait: Is this a loss to the project?  Can OSM be improved by getting some of those mappers to return?
(02:10:52 PM) mackerski: rweait: Are you also interested in ones who never map at all?
(02:11:04 PM) mackerski: Or is it too hard to decide how long to wait for those?
(02:11:07 PM) rweait: mackerski, yes.
(02:11:15 PM) woodpeck: we've definitely seen very speculative extrapolation in the past ("three people have mailed me and said osm is too difficult" => we must do something quick!!!!) and it would be great to put some data to that - supporting or contradicting.
(02:11:16 PM) rweait: But they are a thrnier problem.
(02:11:41 PM) rweait: for now, we have a way to contact one-time mappers. 
(02:11:57 PM) rweait: to contact registered-but-never-mappers, we need access to private data...
(02:12:09 PM) rweait: that's a problem for after we can demonstrate our utility. :-)
(02:12:14 PM) mackerski: Point
(02:13:27 PM) rweait: So do we think that getting some one-and-done mappers to return is a good thing?
(02:13:50 PM) mackerski: Intuitively yes...
(02:14:09 PM) mackerski: But having regard to the uncertainty woodpeck mentions, I guess it depends why they don't return
(02:14:11 PM) RM87: some yes, all-probably not
(02:14:12 PM) Komzpa: I don't think so.
(02:14:12 PM) rweait: or at least "likely enough to be worth investigating?"
(02:14:20 PM) mackerski: Some probably can't manage in the environment
(02:14:28 PM) Komzpa: but it's definitely worth investigating
(02:14:31 PM) yarma: I would say yes
(02:14:34 PM) pnorman: I think we'd need to know why they didn't return. 
(02:14:50 PM) yarma: but it also depend on why they just mapped once ...
(02:14:50 PM) mackerski: Though of course, I'm very big on adapting the environment where we can to capture extra value from such people
(02:14:57 PM) RM87: first we need to know why they did join at laa
(02:15:03 PM) rweait: pnorman: I think "why" is a good question, but also much harder to answer.
(02:15:04 PM) RM87: all*
(02:15:05 PM) bfx: if they think it was to complicatet and they need help it is a good chance they continue mapping after we encourage and help tehm
(02:15:11 PM) Komzpa: most just don't have a psychological need to map. :3
(02:15:14 PM) MichaelCollinson: yes from me, to answer pnorman question if nothing else
(02:15:26 PM) yarma: They can perhaps be just occasional mappers to correct things when they see it
(02:15:43 PM) alexbarth: Komzpa: what did you larn from sending out welcome emails for a year?
(02:16:00 PM) rweait: Okay, so with that as a sort of first goal and example of behaviour for this group, shall we look at "our mission" ?
(02:16:17 PM) rweait: alexbarth:  komzpa, we'll get back to that.
(02:16:33 PM) Komzpa: alexbarth: a lot of people register just because they see such a possibility on site
(02:16:34 PM) rweait: I've drafted this, "The Welcome Working Group endeavors to quantify and qualify the  behaviour of OpenStreetMap contributors with the intent of promoting  best practices in mapping and participation in OpenStreetMap through  research." 
(02:16:47 PM) rweait: can we get behind it, as initial guidance for this group?
(02:17:24 PM) mackerski: I think it's a good thing to do, but a little away from what we've just discussed
(02:17:38 PM) mackerski: In that those discussions were about collecting information
(02:17:44 PM) mackerski: That mission is more about dispensing it
(02:17:56 PM) mackerski: On balance at least
(02:18:00 PM) MichaelCollinson left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(02:18:01 PM) rweait: We'll need knowledge to dispense. 
(02:18:10 PM) yarma: for my point of view, tht two are not diconnected :
(02:18:25 PM) woodpeck: i like how factual it sounds. however are we not, instead of researching the "behaviour of osm contributors", researching the "reaction of new contributors to the osm environment" or something?
(02:18:28 PM) yarma: we need to know how to dispense best practice
(02:18:42 PM) woodpeck: someone who's been a mapper for a year is certainly out of scope for a "welcome" working group?
(02:18:49 PM) mackerski: A word that is floating around my head is "retention"
(02:19:01 PM) mackerski: Having had somebody map, we (probably) want to keep them mapping
(02:19:09 PM) bfx: if we do just research the working group has the wrong name, or else the target must be coordinating encouraging new mappers
(02:19:19 PM) rweait: woodpeck:I'd like to expand to harder questions in time.  And include experienced mappers as well as study subjects.
(02:19:28 PM) mackerski: Part of that is understanding their mapping itch, checking that it fits with ours, then helping them find ways to scratch it
(02:20:00 PM) bfx: i think the research is only our way, not the goal
(02:20:06 PM) mackerski: But it seems to me that at least 50% of what we "dispense" will be driven from what we learn
(02:20:09 PM) mackerski: Stuff we don't yet know
(02:20:12 PM) rweait: mackerski: bfx: the name can be improved.  rtention is certainly part of it, should retention be demonstrably beneficial.
(02:20:24 PM) mackerski: That's the only reason I'm wary of the reference to best-practice
(02:20:38 PM) mackerski: And I'm not especially wary of it, it's fair to mention
(02:20:54 PM) woodpeck: bfx, yes, the wording says that promoting best practices is our goal and research is our means.
(02:21:05 PM) rweait: Any offer of patches for a better interim mission?
(02:21:33 PM) mackerski: A small addition...
(02:22:23 PM) mackerski: ""…with the goal of harnessing mapper enthusiasm to build a better map"
(02:22:36 PM) mackerski: This would, I hope, help us understand whom we would wish to retain
(02:23:11 PM) rweait: Can I get some +1s for the interim mission, including mackerski's addition. please? 
(02:23:36 PM) yarma: +1
(02:23:40 PM) woodpeck: not sure where mackerski's addition fits grammatically but fine with either
(02:23:46 PM) RM87: fine with it
(02:23:57 PM) mackerski: woodpeck: Towards the end, but yes, it will need to be made fit
(02:24:49 PM) rweait: no objections? 
(02:25:48 PM) rweait: in the absence of objections, let's mark the interim mission as accepted.
(02:25:59 PM) rweait: Now, who will do the hard work?:-)
(02:26:21 PM) rweait: I'm particularly interested in a Welcome Group Science Officer.  
(02:26:44 PM) rweait: Who can ensure that we don't invalidate our research with clumsy method?
(02:27:32 PM) yarma: I'm interrested in participating to this group, but didn't have enought time available to lead the group ...
(02:27:55 PM) rweait: Sure.  Where do you see yourself?  Question is open to all.
(02:28:32 PM) rweait:  I will offer approximately one hour per week to WWG tasks, including  orgainzation, research, contacting mappers in English, a little python  programming and SQL work. I am willing to serve in one group position,  provided that every position has a volunteer and a backup.
(02:29:07 PM) mackerski: I'm most interested in helping find answers to what we do once we understand more about the behaviours
(02:30:03 PM) rweait: We'll need a board representative.  That's a short list of candidates...
(02:30:16 PM) mackerski: Four of us are here now
(02:30:18 PM) rweait: and a Management Team rep.  Probably same person.
(02:30:56 PM) mackerski: I have no problem being that guy, also perfectly happy if another is up for it
(02:31:00 PM) rweait: I'll put "mackerski" in that spot then. :-)
(02:31:07 PM) yarma: I see myself more as a consultant  on scientific methodology ...
(02:31:24 PM) mackerski: Formal shout to woodpeck, simonpoole__ and RichardF in case they fancy it
(02:31:28 PM) rweait: yarma: glad to hear it.  that's a skill that may be in short supply
(02:31:46 PM) rweait: any others with experimental design experience?
(02:32:12 PM) yarma: I mean, take part to the discussions, but not sure to have enought time to investigate in the data ...
(02:32:16 PM) woodpeck: mackerski you are the perfect man for it.
(02:32:30 PM) mackerski: Come back in 3 months and say that :p
(02:32:42 PM) ***RichardF recommends mackerski
(02:32:42 PM) ***woodpeck marks calendar
(02:32:45 PM) pnorman: I've got a background in the sciences, but don't have too much time.
(02:32:45 PM) rweait: we'll  also need a chair and secretary or combination of the two.  Needs an organized person to attend all meetings. 
(02:33:23 PM) simonpoole__ left the room (quit: Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~).
(02:33:39 PM) rweait: yarma and pnorman, perhaps you can share the guidance and oversight matters?  
(02:34:21 PM) Komzpa: rweait: did you do any analysis on db I provided?
(02:34:32 PM) rweait: not yet, Kmzpa
(02:34:42 PM) yarma: yes, we can try ;)
(02:34:53 PM) pnorman: ya, I guess I can try
(02:35:13 PM) rweait: And we'll have some programming, I think, as well as the heavy lifting of language and cultural adaptation for messages. 
(02:36:10 PM) rweait: I'm thrilled to have so many languages represented here today.  If you can't participate in other ways, helping us to reach your community is a big help.  
(02:36:25 PM) RM87: I can at least help in translating to Estonian
(02:36:46 PM) rweait: can we get a volunteer and backup for chair and secretary?  
(02:36:48 PM) mackerski: Aitäh!
(02:37:31 PM) simonpoole_ [~simon@adsl-75-186-fixip.datacomm.ch] entered the room.
(02:37:44 PM) ***rweait wonders if that was mackerski volunteering?
(02:37:48 PM) mackerski: It wasn't
(02:37:51 PM) rweait: :-)
(02:37:54 PM) RM87: :D
(02:38:00 PM) mackerski: It means "Thanks" in Estonian
(02:38:12 PM) RM87: so it is
(02:38:43 PM) rweait: Let's move on then.  With the conspicuous absence of a chair / secretary, are we happy to proceed with this interim team here?
(02:38:44 PM) yarma: :D
(02:38:56 PM) rweait: +1 or -1 please.
(02:39:08 PM) mackerski: +1
(02:39:14 PM) RM87: +1
(02:39:16 PM) alexbarth: +1
(02:39:32 PM) bfx: +1
(02:40:53 PM) bfx: can we proceed then?
(02:40:59 PM) rweait: Okay, let's shall. 
(02:41:16 PM) rweait: there has been previous research on new mappers.  What can we learn from that?
(02:41:46 PM) rweait: Komzpa, SomeoneElse and cquest have each contacted large groups of newcomers. 
(02:41:58 PM) rweait: how can we collect and summarize this data?
(02:41:59 PM) yarma: +1
(02:42:14 PM) yarma: I can contact cquest
(02:42:24 PM) Komzpa: I have provided a list of contacted mappers to rweait
(02:42:26 PM) ajashton1 [~aj@c-98-218-228-75.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] entered the room.
(02:42:38 PM) rweait: if the date of contact is recorded, we can get a quick yes / no did they map again....
(02:42:54 PM) ajashton left the room (quit: Read error: Connection reset by peer).
(02:43:17 PM) mackerski: I don't have good records of this, but there are interesting effects from the contacting of mappers due to the CT change
(02:43:19 PM) rweait: Komzpa: do you have a sense for how many mapped again?
(02:43:23 PM) mackerski: Some did resume mapping
(02:43:33 PM) rweait:  mackerski:  true. 
(02:43:53 PM) rweait: I fear it was a small percentage.  How can we measure it.
(02:43:56 PM) mackerski: And many expressed themselves in useful ways as to why they had stopped (many of whom didn't recommence)
(02:44:04 PM) pnorman: rweait: clever sql on a changesetmd database
(02:44:21 PM) rweait: Komzpa, your data had contact dates? 
(02:44:24 PM) Komzpa: rweait: a message was sent daily, I checked logs not daily so sometimes a week was between a first mapping and me looking at user profile.
(02:44:30 PM) ajashton1 is now known as ajashton
(02:45:06 PM) bfx: i have information about an other group: the inactive mappers. roundabout 4 % of the mappers i wrote to during licence change mapped at least one time a few days after i send them the message, so i think they forgot OSM
(02:45:32 PM) rweait: bfx that's helpful. 
(02:45:48 PM) mackerski: It may be interesting to determine some typical personae of mappers
(02:45:54 PM) rweait: and anecdotally matches my experience
(02:45:58 PM) mackerski: Some can be seen to map a few POIs then vanish
(02:46:11 PM) mackerski: We can probably name such a behaviour set
(02:46:23 PM) mackerski: It might turn out that such mappers are not interesting long term
(02:46:27 PM) mackerski: (might)
(02:46:33 PM) rweait: could be. 
(02:46:46 PM) mackerski: OTOH, maybe that's our valuable long tail
(02:46:50 PM) rweait: I fear naming typical behaviours too early.
(02:46:57 PM) mackerski: Nah, not too early
(02:47:05 PM) bfx: the best accepting rates i had with mails written on sunday morning and friday evening
(02:47:06 PM) mackerski: But perhaps it should be a goal
(02:47:16 PM) rweait: bfx: :-)
(02:47:21 PM) pnorman: I want to investigate if Potlatch1 in the edit menu is a problem - anecdotially a surprising number of new editors start with PL1
(02:47:23 PM) bfx: the worst have been sunday evening
(02:47:44 PM) Komzpa: rweait: I have this file with daily backup, so we can calculate date
(02:47:47 PM) rweait: What actions can we take on previous research?
(02:48:03 PM) rweait: Komzpa: good! 
(02:48:17 PM) ***yarma just asked cquest about his data
(02:48:22 PM) mackerski: Whatever we do, we must be wary of exposing the contents of private messages
(02:48:24 PM) rweait: could you also check for edits since contact?
(02:48:28 PM) Komzpa: rweait: it also has a pair of dates, 'first seen' - 'last seen'
(02:48:52 PM) rweait: indeed, mackerski. 
(02:49:16 PM) yarma: I think that with the contact date and what they did later, we can already have some infos ;)
(02:49:31 PM) rweait: I wonder if cquest and Komzpa can return to us with a %age that mapped after contact?
(02:49:41 PM) mackerski: I feel we need to understand what the mappers hoped to get out of OSM
(02:49:59 PM) mackerski: Certainly, in chasing CT agreement, I never bothered to ask
(02:50:02 PM) rweait: mackerski: I'd love that.  I think it's hard. 
(02:50:27 PM) mackerski: Sometimes you find out anyway
(02:50:41 PM) mackerski: It can be stated as a reason for not continuing to map
(02:51:27 PM) rweait: Komzpa, would you collect that information for next time, from your contacts?  
(02:51:34 PM) mackerski: If ever we devise a questionnaire, finding ways of capturing expectation V possible disappointment would be v useful
(02:51:49 PM) rweait: yarma:  could you ask cquest for the same if he has the contact date?
(02:52:02 PM) rweait: mackerski: indeed. 
(02:52:14 PM) alexbarth: also interesting would be a rough idea of what people followed up with. E. g. how many responded to a welcome email? If so, how many of those responded with a question? What were common questions?
(02:52:21 PM) alexbarth: Komzpa: why did you stop sending out welcome emails?
(02:52:30 PM) bfx: cant we do it by a script?
(02:52:55 PM) rweait: bfx: in part, yes, and eventually, yes.
(02:53:13 PM) Komzpa: alexbarth: the script broke.
(02:53:19 PM) yarma: rweait: yes, I will ask him everything we can use ;)
(02:53:25 PM) Komzpa: we do not have stable messaging api.
(02:53:39 PM) rweait: Thank you yarma and Komzpa.
(02:53:46 PM) yarma: I will also contact the other french people that are sending welcome message
(02:53:49 PM) alexbarth: Komzpa: ha. good reason :) but did you feel sending them out was worthwhile? SOunds like it wasn't wrothwhile enough to resurrect the script?
(02:53:50 PM) rweait: I'll ask SomeoneElse for the same data. 
(02:54:03 PM) samlarsen1: i am about to contact some mappers, would be good to get a list of standard things to record from communication, what would be valuable for your analysis?
(02:54:20 PM) Komzpa: alexbarth: I'm too tired to fight things osm sysadmins introduce to stop me from mass sendings.
(02:54:53 PM) alexbarth: Komzpa: or in other words, what benefits did you see from sending out those welcome emails?
(02:55:59 PM) rweait: That's a good point, Komzpa, once this group gains official standing, we'll have better access to members.  
(02:56:17 PM) bfx: yarma, how do you coordinate your contact effords? you wrote you send every new french mapper a mail. have every contacting guy a region or do you have list which new mapper has already been contacted
(02:56:34 PM) rweait: samlarsen1:  I think date of contact.  for one. 
(02:57:40 PM) Komzpa: alexbarth: people came back. asked real questions, not even directly about editing
(02:57:55 PM) yarma: bfx: I didn't take prt to this contact task force, but will ask them for everything ;)
(02:57:56 PM) Komzpa: 'how do I use OSM maps in my %s satnav'
(02:58:07 PM) rweait: okay, we're coming up on 60 minutes and we have another 30 for discussion.  Let's set a next meeting, and some comms expectations... 
(02:58:22 PM) bfx: ok, so they are organised?
(02:58:25 PM) rweait: shall we continue to discuss this topic on talk@ or on osmf-talk@
(02:58:27 PM) yarma: some of the french mappers have xraite tools to detecte the newcommers in theyr area of interrest
(02:58:59 PM) yarma: I will write a small report with everything explained ;)
(02:59:31 PM) rweait: Is everybody able to meet again next week, same time on Wednesday? 
(02:59:41 PM) rweait: only 60minutes next week.
(02:59:46 PM) mackerski: Probably
(02:59:55 PM) pnorman: I won't be regularly making meetings with my schedule
(02:59:57 PM) yarma: I wont, we will have a local meeting in Lyon
(03:00:11 PM) yarma: (to prepare a mapping party )
(03:00:25 PM) RM87: I probably can
(03:01:01 PM) rweait: and we'll keep in touch via talk@ in the interim?  
(03:01:58 PM) rweait: Baring objections, let's call that "accepted unopposed". :-)
(03:02:18 PM) yarma: :D
(03:02:24 PM) rweait: So, any ideas for concrete research we can do, now or in the near future?
(03:02:48 PM) bfx: i have another meeting one hour before, but i think it would not take a long time
(03:03:01 PM) mackerski: Getting figures together for: Time from signup to first edit
(03:03:09 PM) bfx: shouldnt we create a seperate mailing list?
(03:03:12 PM) mackerski: Time from first edit to first lull in editing
(03:03:29 PM) mackerski: Percentage of "lullers" to resume
(03:03:30 PM) rweait: mackerski: I have signup to first edit. 
(03:03:42 PM) mackerski: \o/
(03:03:45 PM) rweait: It's a long tail. 
(03:03:50 PM) rweait: a very long tail. 
(03:04:00 PM) alexbarth: so, i was envisioning we work out� a very light outreach program that we can do in our local communities. Agree on a light framework (what to send out, to who, when) and on indicators we collect (responded, questions asked, etc)>
(03:04:04 PM) rweait: Most edit immediately, some take years...
(03:04:19 PM) alexbarth: then just run this for a couple of months and see what we gather
(03:04:31 PM) alexbarth: i'd be up for running this in dc
(03:04:54 PM) yarma: +1
(03:05:04 PM) rweait: I'd like to see this centralized.  So that the information is institutional. 
(03:05:12 PM) bfx: one of our first tasks should be to create a website which analyse our data
(03:05:15 PM) alexbarth: there would be two outcomes of this: a) immediate data collected b) possibly a best practice for future outreach 
(03:05:19 PM) yarma: I think it's a good idea to begin with test in our local communties ...
(03:05:21 PM) alexbarth: rweait: we're centralizing already :)
(03:05:23 PM) rweait: I'd like to be able to see the graph and watch it move. 
(03:05:45 PM) rweait: and have some of the individual variance shaken out of it. 
(03:06:04 PM) yarma: but also to see if we can find similar aspects in the whole database
(03:06:14 PM) rweait: Most of us have been doing this sort of contact, so now let;s organize it.  
(03:06:17 PM) mackerski: Centralising is good, but we will have to distribute the manual aspects of the process anyway
(03:06:36 PM) mackerski: Even if we automate the first mailout, each reply has to be read and probably followed-up
(03:06:52 PM) rweait: yup. 
(03:07:10 PM) rweait: feedback from the lists has been interesting. 
(03:07:19 PM) yarma: when i talk about to test in our communities, I mean to analyse wat has already be done with the same methodology
(03:07:23 PM) rweait: There was concern about the messages being "creepy"
(03:07:32 PM) yarma: so we can mix the results together
(03:07:41 PM) yarma: like a meta-analysis ...
(03:08:19 PM) rweait: Perhaps we do nothing until we see what happened with the earlier, organized efforts.  
(03:08:45 PM) rweait: if mappers contacted are less-likely to continue, then we might need a different plan?
(03:09:29 PM) yarma: or write a better first contact message ...
(03:09:42 PM) bfx: i think there are many differences between this contact messagens
(03:09:50 PM) mackerski: Some people are very precious about inbound email
(03:09:51 PM) rweait: Also we may need to set a couple of benchmarks.  What determines that a mapper is "engaged".  
(03:10:03 PM) mackerski: I know one guy who signed up to OSM with one of those 10 minute email addresses
(03:10:11 PM) bfx: one is an default mail, others a from a mapper in the region
(03:10:15 PM) mackerski: It was lucky he remembered (just) the password so he could accept CT
(03:10:38 PM) rweait: sure.  we don't want to spam. 
(03:10:49 PM) bfx: in one someone analyses the mistakes the new mapper has made in his first changesets
(03:11:12 PM) mackerski: I think as a project we need to establish a "right" to contact mappers, though, but we'll have to be careful about the charter for this
(03:11:27 PM) rweait: bfx, perhaps we vary the messages like that deliberately and examine the differential result?
(03:11:46 PM) woodpeck: re. creepy, when i was sysadmin at our computing centre 15 years ago i emailed new students who had just got a unix account and announced my office hours in case they needed help; this was occasional mistaken by female students as making a pass at them
(03:11:55 PM) rweait: messages that are longer / shorter, personal / generic, 
(03:12:00 PM) woodpeck: guess careful wording is required ;)
(03:12:08 PM) mackerski: woodpeck: A pretty indiscriminate pass
(03:12:09 PM) yarma: :D
(03:12:10 PM) bfx: yes, and we have to analyse it before saying we need a different plan
(03:12:17 PM) mackerski: Unless you had CCTV in the labs too...
(03:12:39 PM) woodpeck: mackerski, i tried to maximise the result set ;)
(03:12:48 PM) mackerski: :)
(03:13:47 PM) rweait: from a science point of view, how many accounts should we contact?  1% of new signups?  3%  ?
(03:14:02 PM) bfx: i dont think all of our ideas have been tested in previous mails
(03:14:18 PM) rweait: bfx: I agree
(03:14:21 PM) bfx: should we limit it?
(03:14:36 PM) rweait: I think we should limit it. 
(03:14:39 PM) RM87: Will probably need to send messages with same wording first to get an idea whether results are nearly same in all test regions.
(03:14:44 PM) yarma: there are stats law to determine the limits ;)
(03:15:15 PM) rweait:  yarma: and roughly ... ?
(03:15:32 PM) yarma: n > 30
(03:16:02 PM) yarma: and if you take a look at political studies, it's always around 1000 people
(03:16:15 PM) yarma: but for a country large amount of people
(03:16:24 PM) rweait: I think it would be interesting to check results for ISP email vs generic web mail as well. 
(03:16:46 PM) rweait: We'd need status to get access to that data though. 
(03:17:19 PM) bfx: so you would send 1000 of each message type in every language ?
(03:17:27 PM) bfx: do we have so many mappers?
(03:17:38 PM) bfx: +new
(03:18:08 PM) rweait: Well we don't have a deadline, so we can keep going uptil we get enough.
(03:18:08 PM) woodpeck: easily ;)
(03:18:19 PM) RM87: In estonia we have at best 20 new mappers each month
(03:18:28 PM) rweait: And if we start with the frequent languages
(03:18:38 PM) woodpeck: yeah, we won'T get 1000 per country thar's right
(03:19:11 PM) yarma: it will be really less than 1000
(03:19:37 PM) samlarsen1 left the room (quit: Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)).
(03:19:50 PM) rweait: okay, I think that we are starting to run out of steam.  anything we want to cover before we break?  We will stay in touch by email during the week. 
(03:19:52 PM) yarma: 1000 people is for 60 10^6 citizens ;)
(03:20:41 PM) rweait: I'm still looking for a volunteer for chair / secretary and backup for both positions.
(03:20:51 PM) yarma: I need to get back to my books to be sure how to calculate that ;)
(03:20:56 PM) RM87: by email as in a list or?
(03:21:11 PM) rweait: just on talk@ for now, I think.
(03:21:22 PM) rweait: We could get our own list if we get official status.
(03:22:31 PM) rweait: No volunteers?  I may just assign one of you then. 
(03:23:53 PM) yarma: I will vote for rweait ...
(03:23:58 PM) rweait: Okay, thank you for your interest everybody.  I'm looking forward to learning more about our mappers and how we can recognize and encourage best practices.  
(03:25:12 PM) rweait: any objections to closing the meeting?
(03:25:24 PM) mackerski: Go for it, I reckon
(03:25:34 PM) rweait: *** logging ended ***