User talk:LeTopographeFou/Consensus

Proposal process is not the most important

"Proposal process: Based on three pillars (discussion, documentation and vote) this process is probably the most recognized way to reach a consensus inside OSM community."

Not it is not. The most recognized way is a widespread use of some tag in more or less the same way by various mappers, editors and data consumers. Most of highly used tags never went through a proposal process Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 10:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I believe you read it as "it is THE way all past consensus has been achieved" which is obviously not what is written. I said that it is PROBABLY the better codifyed way we have today to document and legitimate (i.e. recognize) there is a new (i.e. reach) consensus on something. It is also an incitation to take part in the proposal process. What's wrong with this? LeTopographeFou (talk) 21:53, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Tag with a "de facto" status.

It is worth clarifying that it is not important whether tag was marked as de facto on wiki, it matters whether it has a clear and widespread use Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 10:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

According to Tag status: "de facto: the tag is in widespread use, it was not approved in a proposal process, it has a widespread acceptance among mappers" and "in use: the feature is in use". No need to define "de facto" meaning, I added a link to this page. LeTopographeFou (talk) 21:58, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Consensus without documentation

"A consensus (or an absence of consensus) can be recognized as such only if it is properly documented in a public and recognized place such as in this wiki. "

While documentation is useful, this statement is untrue. Consensus can exist and be not documented at all Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 10:27, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Do you have an example to illustrate this? I have difficulties to understand how many people can know that they are sharing a consensus without having any trace on a mailing list, a wiki page or another support. And how new comers are expected to follow such non-defined consensus.LeTopographeFou (talk) 22:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

See sidewalk tagging on sidewalks in Netherlands - https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/3785#issuecomment-1046306371 (AFAIK it was never well described anywhere until recently) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 22:45, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I believe that before this edits there was no description anywhere at all how deprecation actually works in OSM Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 22:47, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Also before I gathered documentation and created pages for https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:old_addr:housenumber&action=history https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:entrance%3Dgarage&action=history https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:turn:bus:lanes&action=history https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:turn:bicycle:lanes&action=history https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shop%3Dadult&action=history I believe that this tags were not documented anywhere at all.

I understand the kind of situation you are talking about but I still believe that its hard to believe that a consensus exists when nothing is shared. In your example we were simply lacking documentation (and thanks for creating it). Otherwise someone can claim there is a consensus with no idea whereas other peoples give same meaning to a tag, and pretend that no documentation is needed, they can decide for the community. A consensus implies some kind of sharing. I prefer to encourage documenting and explicit consensus. I added a sentence on that. LeTopographeFou (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

"we were simply lacking documentation" - exactly. That is why I dispute "can be recognized as such only if it is properly documented in a public" - in this case consensus existed but was not documented properly, but use of this tags was clear for people involved (which is not healthy situation as it excludes new people, that is why I put effort into documenting this tags) Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 05:49, 10 March 2022 (UTC)