Talk:Key:canoe

Should rowboats be included?

The wiki page Key:boat says that tag is to specify: "Legal access restriction for boats. In the sense of OSM these are small boats and pleasure crafts, including yachts."

The picture shows a "no rowboats" sign:

But this page Key:canoe says:

"Legal access restriction for boats without a motor or a sail like canoes, kajaks or rowboats."

I can see how canoes and kayaks are basically the same, since both are narrow boats that usually carry 1 or 2 people and are propelled by paddles.

But should rowboat access restrictions be under this key canoe=yes/no/designated, or are they under boat=yes/no/designated - or something else? --Jeisenbe (talk) 04:31, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi, you are right that the image you described at Key:boat might have been confusing: it applies only to the small sub-group of muscle-powered craft instead of the whole group covered under Key:boat :I have changed it to an image that does apply to the whole group.

I also added to the text in Key:boat to clarify the hierarchy as mentioned in Key:access Rowboats are legally the same category as kayaks / canoes (muscle powered craft, added that to Key:canoe).

In OSM muscle-powered craft all called "canoe" when used in terms of Key:canoe.

However a *route=canoe often has a narrower scope (canoe/kayak) and might not be suitable for typical rowing boats because of width :and/or portages. Cheers. Multimodaal (talk) 18:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

We talked about this on the Tagging mailing list as well, and a couple people thought that rowboats would not be considered the same for legal access in their areas: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-June/053523.html - "As a boatie, I would say that rowboats should be a boat, while canoes & kayaks (& surfskis should also be mentioned under that category) would be canoe". "I would also see it like this. Boats with a sail may be very small while rowboats may be quite big and not similar to a canoe in any way. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-June/053525.html - also see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-June/053528.html

So it seems that there is not agreement about rowboats.--Jeisenbe (talk) 20:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

You can surely disagree on the specific term "canoe" for wider group of muscle-propelled craft (you can argue that a kayak is not a canoe) and about practical categories in real life, but in the legal sense ---which this is about--- I haven't seen an argument or example that a rowing boat is prohibited while a canoe is allowed because it is either one. It is as Martin says, rowboat in a legal sense is too imprecise. A specific rowing boat may be prohibited because it is too long for a specific lenght prohibiton, but so is a canoe with the same length (some canoes are longer than many motorboats)

So dimensions of specific unique craft and prohibitions aside, canoes, kayaks surf ski's and rowing boats are placed in the legal category of "muscle propelled craft" / "under oar" instead of "propelled by sail" or "propelled by engine". Signs in various countries make this distinction, with no distinction within this class for canoe vs kayak vs surf ski vs rowing boat. In our wisdom we have given a specific name (canoe) to this wider group that includes many craft that are not a canoe, such as kayaks and rowing boats. Multimodaal (talk) 17:20, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Canoe as Access Restriction and Canoe as Objects

Is there any problem with me (or anyone else) creating the canoe=portage and canoe=put_in pages? Having those objects mixed in with the access restrictions is causing confusion.

Also wanted to highlight that OpenStreetBrowser.org now has Paddling categories, highlighting canoe and paddlecraft of all types infrastructure and routes.

--TreeStryder (talk) 01:53, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

The canoe=portage page already exists, but sure, you can go ahead and create a separate page for canoe=put_in. Or are you proposing a rework of the whole canoe=portage/put_in tags in order to restrict canoe=* to access tags only? Since Tag:waterway=portage also already exists (representing a virtual connection between a waterbody and a portage only used for routing), i like the idea of moving canoe=portage to highway for the physical path but where would =put_in reside? Its really only used in conjunction with canoe, aside from the WikiProject Whitewater Maps tagging scheme.

--SenorGeneroso (talk) 13:18, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Mateusz Konieczny for starting the canoe=put_in page. Life became very busy after I offered.

At the moment, OpenStreetBrowser does not support canoe=egress and canoe=put_in;egress. I hope to add support soon. That is, if someone doesn't beat be to it.

--TreeStryder (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)