Talk:Key:diet:*

diet:kosher ?

There was some discussion previously about having the kosher status of establishments included in the diet feature, without a clear decision.

To record kosher status, two pieces of information are needed. The first is whether the establishment serves meat, dairy, neither ("pareve"), or both separately (meat and milk cannot be mixed in kosher observance).

So I would suggest the options:

diet:kosher=yes
diet:kosher=meat
diet:kosher=dairy
diet:kosher=pareve
diet:kosher=meat_dairy

Also, the certifying organization is an important piece of information, since in most cases the kosher status of a location will be determined by the patron based on his/her recognition of the certifying authority. (kosher observance can be complicated, with different Jewish denominations observing different requirements.)

Probably the best way to accomplish this (based on User:Valhalla's suggestion), is as follows:

diet:kosher:certification=<CERTIFYING AUTHORITY>

As noted there, this format could be useful for other types of certification as well. --Eliyak 17:52, 8 September 2011 (BST)

By extension, I've started using diet:halal=yes I think this is appropriate. --Mishari (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

diet:wholemeal

Since there are some bakeries specialised on wholemeal (at least at Germany), this tag seems to be fitting. So I am proposing diet:wholemeal=*.--Cracklinrain (talk) 10:59, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

more vegetarian dialect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism

In Taiwan, most buddist vegetarian accept dairy but avoid fetid vegetables, alcohol. Jain vegetarian avoid mushroom.

many we need more *_free like alcohol_free, fetid_free, mushroom_free?

IMO we should add these only if someone from these groups actually asks for it. They will probably know better what they are interested in. For example, whether places that do not serve anything non-alcoholic are really a practical concern. Your suggestions also have the problem that they tell me whether I can get meals without mushrooms and vegetarian meals, but not whether I can get vegetarian meals without mushrooms. --Tordanik 13:38, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Phrase removed

I removed that excerpt because, greengrocers are places that sell primarially vegetables and fruits. It's not common to find meat and fish in greengrocers: "Greengrocers that sell lettuce and tomatoes also need to make an effort to offer, for example, a range of explicit vegetarian alternatives to meat or a good selection of fish without animal by-products to deserver vegetarian=yes or pescetarian=yes."

Non food items

"Vegan" redirects here, yet there are a lot of vegan things that are not food e.g. clothes, soaps.

There are shops that advertise as being Vegan, and there should be a tag for it. I suggest that "vegan=yes" can be used for non-food shops.

Full options : add a "friendly" value

I've just notice the "Note on full options" below the table. It pretty much says that if a place does provide dishes for a specific diet, even several dishes, it shouldn't be marked as doing so. How come ?!

The criterion for "yes" is that the place makes "explicit efforts". So if a place doesn't choose to market itself to a specific segment, but does provide the dietary option, it's as good as if they weren't providing anything.

This is confusing and tricky. "Yes" should mean "yes, this diet is available here". If we want to indicate that a place makes efforts, we should add a "friendly" value. "Friendly" means "provides an explicit effort", "yes" doesn't. As for now, we're unable to tag properly some places.

For instance, many indians and lebanese restaurants provide a vegetarian option. But they're not making any effort : it's just the way the indian and lebanese cuisine are. So how should we tag them with diet:vegetarian ? It can't be "only", or "no", as they do provide the option. But it can't be "yes", as "yes" presently means "makes an explicit effort".

I'm almost certain that many people didn't notice the "Note on full options", so many error must have already been made. Some people must be using the tag according to the note, some other according to the table, where the explicit effort notion isn't mentioned.

We really need a new "friendly" value, because the current "yes-that-means-friendly" doesn't help.

Ikanot (talk) 10:59, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

It's true that the "explicit effort" remark could be worded better, but I still disagree on your interpretation of it. To me, it seems to be there in order to set a reasonable minimum standard. There are restaurants that don't have any actual vegetarian meals, but will offer a side salad or something like that instead. The note makes it clear that those should not be counted as "yes", because a bland and barely nutritious salad is hardly a replacement for a decent selection of full meals. Now you are right that, taken literally, this would also cover the case where no efforts are necessary in the first place because the options were there anyway. As I said, though, that doesn't seem to be the intention.

As for the "friendly" value, that could certainly be an option. It could, for example, cover those restaurants that offer a large number of or even mostly meals following a particular diet, and make them easy to find in the menu. There would have to be a good definition, though.

--Tordanik 14:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

I think this is mostly a wording problem. I do agree that place should meet a minimum standard, but I think the "explicit effort" and "several meals" adds confusion (at least, it confused me I guess). I'm not saying that restaurant serving a side salad should be tagged "yes" at all. Instead, I'm trying to draw a line between places where you can follow your diet properly (as opposed to places serving side-salad precisely), and places where you can follow your diet easily. Could this way to describe tags work better ?

only

only provides this dietary option

friendly

although not limited to this dietary option, provides significant range of choices for it. The option may be specifically labelled or advertised.

yes

provides at least a proper choice for this dietary option, constantly available (i.e full meal in a restaurant, specific section in shop)

no

doesn't provide the dietary option at all, or not reliably (i.e side-orders or light snack only in a pub, temporary products in a shop)

Ikanot (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree. The current description is not that clear and it seems legit to make difference between a restaurant which offer various meals/dishes of a specific diet and a restaurant which only offer one meal (or just modified an existing meal) of a specific diet.

kyane (talk) 14:48, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

diet:sugar_free?

I suggest adding a diet:sugar_free key. --AndreasTUHU (talk) 08:44, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I strongly agree that :sugar_free should be a key. --Jaller (talk) 04:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I recommend that you just go ahead and start mapping the diet:sugar_free tag. I wouldn't expect it to be controversial. The data has 4 instances of it already. --Danstowell (talk) 07:39, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the recommendation to start mapping it. But as I'm not very familiar with the concept, let me ask: Is there any internationally established definition what "sugar free" means? --Tordanik 14:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

add 'limited' value

In my opinion we should add a 'limited' value where there is only a limited choice for a particular diet, but not a full/proper choice as =yes implies. This would mean that =no can just be for places where there are no options at all.

Currently the wiki suggests using 'no' if there are only a few small options available and for when there's nothing available at all for a particular diet.

With a limited value, the no value can be used for when there is nothing available at all and limited when there is maybe just one or two options.

eg diet:vegetarian at a fish and chip shop:

=limited when only chips are available

=no when the chips are fried in beef dripping and has absolutely nothing veggie at all - there are a few of these in N Yorks

(limited is also used in Key:wheelchair) --Lakedistrict (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi - I strongly support this idea of adding a "limited" value. It's important to distinguish between, for example, "vegetarians would starve here" (value 'no') and "vegetarians would not starve but wouldn't prefer here" (value 'limited'). Especially important in rural settings and other places where there's not much choice. I'll add a note to the page that this is a suggestion, which I hope will lead to some more discussion here. --Danstowell (talk) 10:59, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Two years later, there's 129 objects being tagged with diet:vegetarian=limited, and the issue surfaced a couple of times in the OSM Vegan Telegram group. I support the idea of adding this value. I would explain the values this way

=only dedicated to this kind of diet.

=yes are aware of this particular diet, and serve a variety of matching choices.

=limited serves some dishes that are compatible with the diet, enough to set a complete meal, not enough for repeating.

=no means no.

Mariotomo (talk) 17:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

There currently is no way to express whether dishes are explicitly labeled as conforming to the diet on the menu, or if one has the inconvenience to ask/guess at the location. The limited value, when defined as expressing a degraded experience for the affected group, would be a good fit for when there are options available, but those are not explicitly labeled. For example, there are restaurants that offer vegetarian or vegan dished, but do not explicitly label them, so extra steps are necessary to confirm. I’d suggest the following definitionː

=limited serves dishes that are compatible with the diet, but the experience is degraded, e.g., due to a very limited selection or missing labeling on the menu.

This definition of the limited value is also in alignment with the one given at https://www.veggiekarte.de/how-to/tutorial_de.html (German site).

--V02460 (talk) 15:54, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

"due to a very limited selection" should be still no, for example restaurant selling wild meat and having also a single salad is =no. In general I would be against adding more values where it was well defined which values are available as it would invalidate existing data. Better to invent new tag to track labelling Mateusz Konieczny (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

If the restaurant has a salad option that is enough for a meal, but most people go there for the wild meat, then that's still an option to go eat even if it's not great. The current definitions require tagging that as =no, which is just wrong because they literally have vegetarian food (even if the range is limited). Most restaurants in Europe would currently require tagging as =no, which is misleading when you can eat the one vegetarian main course they usually have as well as side dishes. It seems to me as though there is, at least on this talk page, mostly consensus on that =limited is a good idea to add as well as what it should mean. I agree, though, that we should be hesitant to add even more options and that the definition should be very carefully chosen and worded. --Lucgm (talk) 13:03, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

"due to [...] missing labeling on the menu" would overlap with restaurants that sell only vegetarian food because they don't need to label it, or when it is obvious and there are sufficient options but there is no explicit label. Wouldn't want people to nitpick on the labeling unnecessarily. Perhaps the wording could be "due to a very limited selection or when it is unclear that some dishes are vegetarian". --Lucgm (talk) 13:03, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Paleo diet

Today I started mapping a new tag called diet:paleo on a cafe that offers the food for the Paleolithic diet. It is also called paleo, caveman, or stone-age diet and restricts to food which had been consumed by humans in the Paleolithic era. While I do not know how common this diet is, I am suggesting diet:paleo as the standard over diet:paleolithic. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4731543599 --Jaller (talk) 09:45, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

They have, but only if you ask – then what?

Some places don't have any vegetarian or vegan options on the menu, but will make it if you ask. This might be terrible, but might also be great, espcially for places where they easily make a vegetarian option vegan by using some other sauce or something. Should these places be tagged with the diet type that they provide if asked, or only the diet types on the menu? And should there be some specific type of tag for this? Thanks! --Forteller (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

As a vegetarian, I know a few places that provide excellent vegetarian dishes if you notify them while booking the reservation. This is indeed very useful information for vegetarians but it's pretty hard to verify for mappers. —M!dgard [ talk ] 23:04, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Personally, the experience I'd expect with a "yes" is that I can just go there and pick something suitable from the menu without any extra preparations or awkward requests for special treatment. So I'd be inclined to consider that situation a "no". --Tordanik 20:17, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Difference between key:* and key:?

What is the difference between diet=* and diet:=*? The sites look very similar.

At the same time, the diet=* is set to describe the prefix diet:*=*. -- Lenochod (talk) 14:12, 6. January 2023 (UTC)

Both are the same. Something B (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

It looks to me like they were mixed up. Now the content is almost the same. The correct page for the prefix would be Key:diet:* (→see) --Chris2map (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Notation of data item for prefix "diet"

Hi, I did a change to the data item for the prefix "diet..." to match the practice for all other prefixes; Item:Q6056 vs. Item:Q5719. Lately we have omitted the * from all data items for prefixes. So Key:prefix:*, but Item:prefix: (see short discussion on Proposal_talk:Documentation of key prefixes & suffixes#Data_items). --Chris2map (talk) 21:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

@Chris2map: Thank you for the notice. If I link in Data Items to a page with a prefix, will I use Key:prefix:* or Key:prefix:? See Item:Q6056.

How to link from a wiki page to a prefix wiki page, use {{Key|prefix:}} or {{Key|prefix:*}}? I use {{Key|prefix:*}}.

As with the variant {{Tag|diet|subkey=vegetarian||yes}} in Cs:Tag:amenity=restaurant? In this way, it refers to the redirect for the prefix. -- Lenochod (talk) 10:29, 10. January 2023 (UTC)

To link to a prefix or suffix there is {{Prefix}} and {{Suffix}}. E.g. {{Prefix|addr}} = addr:*=* --Chris2map (talk) 12:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)