Talk:Minnesota/Minnesota highway classification
Q1: What are Minnesota's regional centers?
--jumbanho (name added by Turnt for clarification, dunno if this is really necessary, but I do think we should sign for the future)
My thought on regional centers that would be served by trunks would be a combination of population and/or regional importance. Each pair of these should have a motorway or trunk connecting them. I'm not sure about within the Metro area, but my thoughts on outstate would be:
- Rochester
- Mankato
- Worthington
- Saint Cloud
- Moorhead
- East Grand Forks
- Duluth
- International Falls
- Brainerd
- Austin/Albert Lea
Outside MN
- Sioux Falls
- Watertown
- Fargo
- Grand Forks
- Winnipeg
- Thunder Bay
- Eau Claire
- LaCrosse
- Mason City
- Dubuque? (I think 52 should be trunk...)
- Waterloo
- Sioux City
--TurntSnacko (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
The big question for me is that I'm just not really sure how *many* we should have, and I'm inclined to think we can learn this by analyzing how many regional centers other states have been using. To what extent does a state like Mississippi (which has half the population of Minnesota) consider regional centers, and what extent does a state like Ohio (twice the population of Minnesota) consider regional centers?
Whatever the case may be, I agree with your list, and I'm going to break it up into tiers based on how many we end up deciding to use:
Also, as for the twin cities, I think that connected urban areas (think of St. Cloud + its suburbs, and especially the Iron Range; whose individual cities like Hibbing and Virginia don't add up to much but when all combined could maybe be considered Tier 3) should be counted as just one center on its own.
Inside MN
TIER 1: Twin Cities, Duluth, Rochester, St. Cloud, Mankato, Moorhead
TIER 2: International Falls, Albert Lea, Owatonna, Alexandria, Brainerd, Bemidji, Worthington, Willmar, Monticello
TIER 3: Red Wing, Winona, Faribault, Marshall, Fergus Falls, Detroit Lakes, Grand Rapids/Hibbing/Virginia/Iron Range, East Grand Forks, Fairmont
Outside MN
TIER 1:
CAN: Thunder Bay, Winnipeg
ND: Grand Forks, Fargo
SD: Sioux Falls
IA: Waterloo
WI: Eau Claire
TIER 2
IA: Sioux City, Dubuque, Mason City
WI: La Crosse
TIER 3
CAN: Fort Frances, Kenora
ND: Wahpeton
SD: Watertown, Brookings
WI: River Falls, Hudson
--Rjgambrel (talk) 14:41, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
I may take a stab at the issue of regional destinations by looking at the official MnDOT map and some existing mapping we have done already in OSM. I am hopeful it will give us a transportation infrastructure view that can help us tier these things. Of course, my method might not work.
--Rjgambrel (talk) I have been able to pretty successfully update the regional centers section based on the discussion we had in Slack (local-minnesota channel) over the last few days. As per that discussion, I did a complete replacement of what was there. I may convert the images to tables and/or make other formatting changes. Nothing major is planned except to incorporate the metro Twin Cities material after a day or so of discussion in Slack.
Q2: Are some motorway islands acceptable?
--TurntSnacko (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
As it stands now, Minnesota has 37 examples of motorways that are disconnected from the motorway network on both ends. The shortest of these is a 1 mile long singular intersection (MN-60/MN-30 at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/43.9805/-94.4327), the longest is an 11.5 mile stretch of freeway with 7 controlled access intersections from Saint Paul to Cottage Grove (US-10/US-61 at https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/44.8675/-92.9534). If the US-10 motorway island in the Southeast Metro is acceptable then at what point are they no longer acceptable? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/2021_Highway_Classification_Guidance says the following: "In general, a disconnected motorway should have multiple grade-separated, controlled access interchanges over a significant distance, generally at least 2-10 miles, in order to be tagged as a motorway island." We can choose our own limit to this, or we can scrap it altogether and not have any motorway islands.
--TurntSnacko (talk) 19:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC) I think Motorway islands should be kept if they are part of a trunk connection. For example US-52, which connects the Twin Cities to Rochester, is certain to be a Trunk road. Along US-52 there are 4 Motorway islands, all of which indicate a higher trafficked section of US-52 and of course meet the physical conditions of a motorway. If a motorway island is not part of a Trunk road, then it should be removed. Depending on how many trunk roads we end up having, this may mean keeping anywhere from 40% to 100% of the motorway islands.
--Rjgambrel (talk) this post is on behalf of David Wisbey (Your Village Maps); it is a paste of his Slack comment on 12/16/2021 at 8:03 PM
My main issue with classification has to do with motorway vs trunk, something that has been debated ad nauseum on the OSM-US talk email list.
In the case of US 52 (between I-90 and I-94), I prefer to upgrade portions that had been correctly mapped as trunk to motorway whenever MnDOT construction projects (new interchanges, elimination of at-grade crossing and side street access, addition of frontage roads, etc. (the current mostly southbound 52 between Cannon Falls and Zumbrota project is a perfect example which will result in a lot more that I think should be changed in OSM to motorway when it's completed)
For many years this highway has been officially proposed to all be motorway eventually. This is one reason I like the idea of changing portions from trunk to motorway as this (albeit terribly slow progress) occurs over the years.
Generally, even if there's an interchange (old or new), if there are still lots of at-grade crossings near the interchange, then I think it should be left as trunk around that particular interchange until further improvements are made by MnDOT. However, if other work in the vicinity of the interchange has been completed (removing at-grade crossings and side streets, etc.) then I would mark that stretch through the interchange and the improved section on either side of that interchange as motorway.
The best example I can think of now is the relatively new interchange at US 52 & Goodhue County Road 9 (County 9 Boulevard). I had originally mapped that portion of US 52 as motorway, but another mapper (Fluffy89502) downgraded it back to trunk with the reasoning "one grade separation does not mean that the route is a freeway". I happen to agree and I so I "stand corrected". The only goofy thing about it is that this interchange has an Exit Number (89) and so it has a node that is a "motorway_junction" with the added ref=89 tag; the off-ramps also have junction:ref=89.
However, a new interchange is going to be built at US 52 and MN 57 at Hader (unincorporated place) in 2022, and they will be eliminating the at-grade situations around both of these interchanges, creating a stretch of several miles that I believe *should* then be mapped as motorway.
--Rjgambrel (talk) 20:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC) I have just incorporated the discussion above into the just updated main wiki page. Future comments should be with respect to the wiki page now.
Q3: What is to be done with motorway stubs?
--TurntSnacko (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Similar to the previous question, there are numerous examples of motorways that lead out to nowhere. The most serious of these I think are US-12 and US-212, both of which head west out of the Twin Cities heading towards nowhere of motorway importance; the former towards Willmar, the latter towards Granite Falls. These ones may be allowed to stay as motorways and then demote abruptly due to their length, but some shorter ones exist as well, such as MN-77 which briefly extends further south from I-35E. What should be done with these roads?
--Jumbanho (talk) 14:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC) I think they are fine as stubs and then convert to trunk (with expressway tags when necessary) when they stop being a motorway. I think it is reasonable to tag both of these as trunk all the way to Aberdeen/Watertown respectively as these are (for South Dakota) regional centers.
--TurntSnacko (talk) 19:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC) I agree with keeping all motorway stubs with the exception of those that are less than 2 miles and have only 1 interchange. This would include MN-47 [Coon Rapids], (1) MN-55 [Minneapolis], (1) MN-62 [Eden Prairie], (2) MN-62 [Sunfish Lake], and CR-21 [Shakopee]. They're just too short in my view; I'd guess that the reason they exist is just to make traffic off of a completed motorway slow into trunk/primary roads more gradually. Amending my opinion slightly: (edit on December 16th) motorway stubs can also be kept if they are part of a trunk road, like as in my answer to Q2.
--Rjgambrel (talk) 20:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC) I have just incorporated the discussion above into the just updated main wiki page. Future comments should be with respect to the wiki page now.
Q4: What are the general guidelines for each classification?
--TurntSnacko (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
The three real factors that determine a road's classification are, in order of importance, firstly the role the road has in connecting the network together (I-94 being the most important connection across Minnesota, from ND to WI), secondly the physical attributes of the road (is it divided, does it have controlled access intersections, does it have stop signs, does it have a sidewalk, etc), and then thirdly how well used the road is (daily traffic counts, courtesy of MNDOT: https://mndot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=7b3be07daed84e7fa170a91059ce63bb). It is well established in both of the wiki pages on highway classification that a motorway must have no at-grade intersections and be a divided road. None of the other road classifications have musts to qualify. So the question is, which guidelines should be used in determining them? Based on the two wiki pages, these are the notes that I have taken on them:
Bolded are requirements for the classification
Motorway: No at-grade intersections, divided carriageways (opposite sections of a freeway), has no street lights, no stop signs, no sidewalks, two or more lanes in each direction with a hard shoulder, generally are all Interstate highways and some US highways
Trunk: Connect important regional cities to the motorway network (US-169 is [mostly] a trunk road that connects Mankato to the Twin Cities), are generally high-trafficked alternatives to interstate routes (US-10 along the east side of the Mississippi River, as opposed to I-94 on the west side), divided carriageways, no stop signs, no sidewalks, two or more lanes in each direction with a hard shoulder, generally are the rest of the US highways and some MN highways
Primary: Connecting the county seats of the whole state into the motorway+trunk network (ideally no place in the state should be more than a 15 mile straight line from a primary road or higher, excluding within 50 miles of the canadian border), are the highest-trafficked road between two motorways (US-61 connects I-694 to I-94 in Saint Paul) no stop signs, do have sidewalks (in urban areas), two or more lanes in each direction without a hard shoulder, generally carry 20,000 cars a day or more (only in the twin cities), generally are the rest of the MN highways and some CR's (county roads)
Secondary: Connecting the remainder of the state into the road network (ideally no place in the state should be more than 10 mile straight line from a secondary or higher road, even up north), connect intercity neighborhoods to the motorway network (every individual neighborhood in urban areas should be within a mile of a secondary or higher road), around half of the remaining motorway exits to be classified, no stop signs, 1+ lanes in each direction with additions (one lane in each direction with a seperated turn lane, or with the yellow hashed line bits you can't go over that you can see here someone tell me the name of it, or with a tram line/bus lane, and so on), generally carry 10,000 cars a day or more (only in the twin cities), generally are CR's and well-known street names
Tertiary: Residential collector roads (all residents will have to take these to get to the secondary+ road network, rural residents [except up north] within 3 miles of one, urban residents within half a mile), have painted lines on the road, have stop signs, generally carry 1,000 cars a day or more (only in the twin cities), should include all remaining designated roads
All of this stuff is super subjective and open to opinion, so further discussion on which guidelines should be added, removed, or made necessary/more important than others is needed.
--Rjgambrel (talk) 01:45, 22 January 2022 (UTC) We have been concentrating on Motorways, Expressways, and Trunks so far. Putting the other classes aside for now, are the proposed motorway and expressway descriptions (in the wiki page) sufficient or is more information needed there? Regarding trunks, "divided carriageways, no stop signs, no sidewalks, two or more lanes in each direction with a hard shoulders": I have seen often in the other channels that motorways are the only highway types that have physical characteristic requirements. So I think some of the items in the quotes should not be part of the definition or guidelines. I think, for example, the carriageways do not have to be divided and the need for two or more lanes in each direction seems unnecessary.
Q5: Is there any purpose to the Minnesota Legislative & Constitutional Routes?
--TurntSnacko (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
Tbh, I'm not sure what to put here, lmao
Q6: Should there even be any Trunk Roads in the Twin Cities?
--TurntSnacko (talk) 05:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
There exists very lively debate in national (and other states) road classification projects about whether or not Trunk roads ought to be in urban environments at all. This is because the main purpose of a trunk road is to connect statewide cities/regional centers to the motorway network, and many argue should be its only purpose. Primary roads really better serve the purpose of connecting different parts of the metro to other parts of the metro, and more effectively than Trunk roads do. From a physical attributes and a traffic count point of view, there are very few examples of trunk roads in the Twin Cities. Actually going ahead and not having any Trunk roads in the cities would be a task though, because there are a few thorny exceptions, notably: MN-55/Hiawatha Avenue (very high-trafficked, is consistently dual carriageway, connects motorways I-94 to MN-62, but also has many at-grade intersections), MN-55/Olson Memorial Highway (much of the same, connects I-494 to US-169 to MN-100), and MN-7 which is a motorway gap of a few miles in length. So, should we have Trunk Roads in the Twin Cities or not? (sidenote, this applies to all urban environments in Minnesota as well)