Talk:Russian–Ukrainian war
Opinion about request
This request is ridiculous and counter-productive. With all respect for the underlying thinking, and above all with every sympathy with the Ukrainian people and nation!
Nobody in their right senses will ever imagine that the big bad bear will rely on data that can be freely manipulated by anybody. Besides, they are sure to have their own information, obtained with superior technology, over a long period.
If any of the bad people are following this, how they must be laughing at us! To think we could hinder their operations by obscuring information that is freely available in a thousand ways!!
My own humble opinion is that we should just carry on our work, unimpeded by their gross and totally illegal "operation". The least we let ourselves be impacted, the more it will annoy them.
Again, with all my support and sympathy for the Ukrainian people and nation, Jan olieslagers (talk) 13:08, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- There are, at this point of time, about a dozen wars happening world-wide. The Ukraine one is clearly different and it is a war which is also very fiercely fought on the Internet and in the mainstream media. This is the main difference between this one and the various other ones.
- The effect of this is that half the world will have an opinion on mapping details in Ukraine, and I think it will be un-avoidable to have editing-wars ending with stressed-out volunteers leaving the project.
- For that reason I'm in favor of the lock advocated on this page, OSM should not be caught in politics. That can only hurt us. Kaartjesman (talk) 16:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
- Waarde mevrouw/mijnheer Kaartjesman, I absolutely totally completely agree that OSM should not be caught in politics. That is exactly the reason why I think we should carry on our work, disregarding war and politics. We are not going to change either, anyway. Thanks for polite discussion! Jan olieslagers (talk) 16:22, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
DWG view on the topic
"For the avoidance of doubt, “follow the local community” IS the DWG view on mapping in Ukraine at this time. The answer to “what is it OK to map and what is it not” will always be fairly nuanced; the war that Russia started is still ongoing, but normal life to an extent is also ongoing too. The balance of what is and is not OK is best judged by people actually there." -SomeoneElse on the forum, 2022-12-27
Too wide block into Hungary
I usually edit with Rapid. Some settlements in Hungary territory are covered black in Rapid! Please someone narrow the border and place it more precisely, to cover just Ukraine. Now the black shadow is probably 1-2 km over into territory of Hungary. For example I cannot see and edit (with Rapid) the settlement Uszka which is within Hungary (near the border).
In "pure" OSM it is visible as usual. --Misibacsi (talk) 10:10, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- This seems like an issue to mention on the Github page of Rapid. 501ghost (talk) 18:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
It is not Rapid related. It seems it is also blocked on "normal" OSM edits, well within Hungary territory (3 km).
Check for example: Tiszaszentmárton or Lónya. They shown as white area, without the possibility to edit roads or buildings.
PLEASE refine the block area. --Misibacsi (talk) 07:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Opinion about objectivity
The text would be improved if the first paragraph would be shortened to: "Russia attacked Ukraine on 24 February 2022." and continue with the next paragraph. Firstly, it is not necessary to describe how a war is fought. Secondly, the text that describes the history of the conlfict would otherwise also have to include a description of hostilities carried out by Ukraine since 2014 against civilian areas inside Donbass. --New observer (talk) 19:04, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
Lack of explicit community support
This page is now well over a year old, and after https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/russian-ukrainian-war/7285 did not result in any clarifications or updates of the guidelines, I think it has become unclear to what extent the Ukrainian OSM community as a whole supports the content of this Wiki page. It is also not enforced. Instead, only clear cases of vandalism and other malicious or wrong edits are reverted. IMO without more up-to-date edits to the Wiki page by the Ukrianian OSM community this page is losing its value as a consensus-based mapping guideline and is starting to get out of date. --501ghost (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am afraid I share this concern. Myself am only concerned with the mapping of aerodromes, and am quite annoyed with the chaos that has been created about aerodromes in Ukraine. I can see the point of not giving away strategic information to the enemy, though I also doubt that the big bad bear will pay much attention to our database. People have made efforts to hide aerodrome information, but in an absolutely chaotic way: sometimes the complete aerodrome was removed, sometimes only the runway(s), sometimes everything except the runways, sometimes the name, or the quintessential aeroway=aerodrome. It is all the worse because some forces "high up" insist that I, as a foreigner, should respect the decisions of the local community. But if the local community behave like panicking chickens when the fox gets in their hut, where are their communal decisions? It must be said that I do not follow the discussions in Ukrainian, for lack of knowledge of that language. Also, I think the point is not very relevant now, since all civilian aviation must be suspended in this unhappy country as long as the war goes on. So I have decided to let things be for what they are, but they do be chaotic. On a closing note: all my sympathy and all my support for the Ukrainian people and nation! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
Questinoning of scope
Russia is building a railway link between to existing rail lines in the occupied part of Donetsk Oblast. The route is easily identifiable on public Sentinel Satellite images. The reason "The possible use of open data by Russian invaders to plan attacks on military and civilian objects is one of the most important reasons why we ask you not to perform any mapping of objects in Ukraine." clearly does not apply to a construction which the occupiers themselves perform, they don't need OSM maps to know where they build this line. It's also public knowledge, lots of youtube and telegram channels have already covered the contruction. Some people already entered the rail link, mostly correct, except for its southern part near Hranite. According to the Russian–Ukrainian war page, all data would have to be removed, but it would only lead to worse information for the public. But objectively worse information for the public won't put an end to the information war. A void of verified information is rather a fertile soil for growing disinformation. The trade-off regarding possible military use would be different for smaller features, which are hard to spot on a map and matters which are not already publicly known. But in regards to train lines (except metro / underground), which are generally impossible to hide from even low resolution sattelite imaging, I cannot see any advantage in not updating the map. --Minixme (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with your arguments, I draw your attention to the fact that this is an informal agreement, there was no vote. That is, in fact, I can also write an article in which I will forbid anything and refer to it in the future. This article makes no sense, there is still no DWG decision to ban editing and there is no "consensus" in the community. I occasionally edit the map of Ukraine and the territory of Russia, which formerly was Ukrainian (small edits that can not help any country in the war), I just looked at several of my changesets, they were not reverted. In fact, no one forbade you to edit the map, this article is just the activity of several activists who agitate their rules above OSM laws. —Grass-snake (talk) 12:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I generally agree, but still: 1) there are NO laws on OSM, there are only common practices. 2) There does exist a rather strong comment from a person of authority, a member of the DWG: [quote]The balance of what is and is not OK is best judged by people actually there.[/quote]. Myself have seen some of my corrections of obvious vandalism reverted, and have given up trying. On a side note: some will go quite far, for example adding "dummy" decoy aerodromes in OSM, a bit like WW2 real-life practice. I consider it all sheer stupidity, but I bow to the authority of the DWG, and of course I have every understanding for the queer pranks of a cat cornered. Jan olieslagers (talk) 12:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)