User talk:Elgaard

Your edit on default speed limits page

Hi Elgaard, I noticed your edit on the Default speed limits page. Thank you for your contribution, however there are several problems with the edit which will force me to revert it if not corrected:

1. Most importantly: You did not give a source for either of the two edits. See the contribution guideline outlined on the same page. Any change to the page must be backed up by a citation of the actual legislation text. If the law has been updated, update the link to the legislation text. If it was simply wrong before (legislation text was interpreted wrongly), then at least mention it in the edit summary.

2. The "tempo100" modifier is not parsable. The table must remain machine-readable otherwise it becomes useless. Those 100-stickers are (unfortunately) somewhat an omission in the table, across all countries as many countries actually have such stickers. However, the bestowal of such stickers is usually coupled to certain technical properties of the vehicle or trailer in question. In general, the assumption so far is that for example "coaches" (i.e. inter-city-buses with seatbelts and other safety features) always have the technical requirements to be granted that sticker. Maybe it is possible to express it differently (by looking at the technical prerequisites) for which the 100 km/h sticker on trailers is valid?

--Westnordost (talk) 17:24, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the actual changes you made, I think maybe your edit is based on a misunderstanding how the values of the table are to be interpreted by software. See point 2 in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits#Speed_limits_by_vehicle_type , it may look counter-intuitive at first but there is a good reason for that. See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Default_speed_limits#overriding for a longer explanation --Westnordost (talk) 17:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

The source is the law [1] which has been changed. E.g., there is no longer a 70 km/limit (law of May 1. 2019, effective from Jan 1 2020).

It seemed very arbitrary that maxspeed was 100 for coach busses, but 70(or 80) for cars with trailers considering that the text in the law is almost the same (§ 43, stk 10 and 11) and they get the same Tempo-100 approval. Elgaard (talk) 17:55, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I looked for and updated the source link to the current legislation. I compared the law texts and pretty much what was changed was the change from 70 to 80 for trucks, trailers. I also corrected the misunderstanding you probably introduced because you did not read or misunderstood https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Default_speed_limits#Speed_limits_by_vehicle_type . Regarding the stickers, I removed them (for now) because the 100-sticker-stuff has been omitted from the mappings in all the legislation. To add 100-sticker-rules to one country would be inconsistent - then it would need to be added to all (IMO). So the legislation says

"Stk. 11. Transportministeren kan fastsætte regler om, hvilke betingelser der skal være opfyldt, for at biler med tilladt totalvægt på ikke over 3.500 kg tilkoblet påhængsvogn, sættevogn eller registreringspligtigt påhængsredskab, herunder campingvogn, må køre med op til 100 km i timen på motorvej."

Do you know any source where such rules as laid down by the ministry of transportation can be accessed in a written form? As written, these must be based on certain technical properties of such vehicles or trailers. Maybe of introducing such a "sticker" rule, instead one can use the actual technical properties as a filter? --Westnordost (talk) 19:28, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but they are a bit complicated, there are two versions (old and new). It depends on which kind of vehicle. It is based on approved producers. It is in some circumstances possible to use a Tempo-100 approval in another country but not always. There is a requirements for ABS brakes, new tires (<6 years), seat-belts for passengers in busses, more frequent car inspecions, etc. [2] [3] Elgaard (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the link.

As for camper vans, trailers, ... it doesn't look like it can reasonably be added based on (technical) rules. Only a tempo-100 label as you did in your change could be added. I do not have such a strong opinion about this as it may seem from my first message, however I am not sure if such a label would make sense at all. It's an exception/override to the 80-rule much like a signed speed limit is an override of the default speed limit. I.e. the definition of the tempo-100 sticker is pretty much "max speed is increased to 100", regardless of the usual default for that vehicle type. Anyway

I've put the link to the tempo-100 stuff into the documentation as a source for at least for the "100 on coaches" in the table (because coaches pretty much are defined along these lines, see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach) so that the info is available in any case. --Westnordost (talk) 20:34, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

It is only an override on motorways (in Germany at least, in Denmark it is less of an issue because DK:rural is 80. But there are some motorroads signed with 90, where a Tempo-100 approved vehicle can still only do 80). Besides minibusses can also have tempo100. Elgaard (talk) 16:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Hmm I guess, better add that tempo100 label again in the table and document its meaning further below in the "how to read this table" section then Westnordost (talk) 20:48, 23 January 2023 (UTC)